Baha'i and Matrixism? - Page 3

Popeyesays · 11-14-2006, 09:50 PM

Actually, there is only the reference to the Matrix in reference to the womb of the mother before the child is born. This is quite clear if you actually READ any of Abdu'l Baha's talks. Most Matrixists don't bother to do that, sad . . . .

Anyway, if you want to take a look at the Baha`i Faith and future culture, please read my novel The Sword of the Dajjal coming out in February, 2007.
[Sci-Fi for pre-orders].

As to Remeyite Baha`i's? There really aren't any. The Remeyite 'Orthodox' schism shattered at least three more times, dividing over individuals claiming to have been appointed by Remey. Since Remey actually became quite senile he clearly appointed three seperate "Guardians" to succeed him, one of which foreswore any claim to any belief, and another unrelated Fremchman subsequently made a claim to the "Fourth Guardianship".

No more Remeyites in existence as best I can tell, and I have made some search for them. They are Jensenites, Marangellists and several others, but no Remeyites. He's been dead for more than thirty years.

For more information on the phenomena of Remey, read: Mason Remey and Those Who Followed Him

Regards,
Scott

Popeyesays · 11-14-2006, 09:56 PM

Oh, it seems one of the basic tenets of the Matrix believers is the use of drugs and psychedelics. This is highly contrary to the teachings of the Baha`i Faith. No drug for the purpose of altering the consciousness is ever condoned. Baha`u'llah teaches us that the human mind is PERFECT to commune with God. To alter it is to open one's self to the most pernicious of idle fancies and vain imaginings, and is unbelievably dangerous to the soul.

Regards,
Scott

arthra · 11-15-2006, 01:08 AM

"....the human mind is PERFECT to commune with God. To alter it is to open one's self to the most pernicious of idle fancies and vain imaginings, and is unbelievably dangerous to the soul."

Thanks for sharing that! The perfection of man is a concept that few I think appreciate.

- Art

DynoMight · 11-21-2006, 04:45 PM

The point is that the "living guardian" was promised in the Baha'i writings to be the solution to the skisms that often plague religion. Unfortunately as I have said before The Hands of the Cause of the Baha'i faith took it upon themselves to do away with a living guardian. According to the Baha'u'llah own writings this will guarantee skism or the creation of opposing Baha'i Sects. Regardless who leads them and by what name you call them there are many sects of the Baha'i Faith that are alive and if Baha'u'llah's own words are any indication there always will be.

As for psychedelics creating idle fancy the same charge has been leveled against mysticism in general. Of course without true mysticism a religion has no believable base from which to profess. Again with regard to psychedelics and mystical spiritual experience I direct your attention to a recent study done at Johns Hopkins University: Johns Hopkins Gazette | July 24, 2006

The Baha'i Faith puts the brakes on mysticism such that no one should reach the ultimate goal of the mystic which is divine union and transcendental awareness. This is plainly done such as to maintain the status quo with regard to not creating new types of social order. But the world keeps on changing (these days very rapidly) and without free mystics or a "living guardian" the Baha'i Faith has no real way to adapt. It is thus stuck in the mud. Perhaps this is the main reason that the ranks of the Baha'i are dwindling.

ps- By the way that "idle fancies and vain imaginings" quote is weak. It's the Baha'i equivalent of "the Lord works in mysterious ways". People are much more intelligent and well educated these days. They demand actual reasons and proof (Johns Hopkins Gazette | July 24, 2006).

arthra · 11-22-2006, 02:36 AM

Hmmm... Dyno...

We've been over this in previous posts on this thread about the Guardianship ...that it continues to be a living institution in our Faith.

There is mysticism in the Baha'i Faith if you'd care to research it

See

Mysticism and the Baha'i Community

Mysticism and the Baha'i Faith

Baha'i Mysticism Resources

and the Faith is growing and adapting as we speak.

But it has precious little to do with psychedelics or magic "shrooms" or "Matrixism"...

- Art

Popeyesays · 11-22-2006, 05:11 AM

Dyno,

I begin to wonder if you have a point to make. You seem very ignorant of the workings of the Baha`i Administrative Order.

You seem to think that Shoghi Effendi as Guardian was within his rights to die without appointing a successor. Abdu'l Baha appointed him to be the Interpreter of the Sacred Writings. He called upon all the Afnan (descendants of the Bab and Baha`u'llah (of whom ONLY Shoghi Effendi and his siblings existed, during the Guardianship all of his siblings became covenant breakers).

That gives him the right. If he HAD appointed a Guardian it could not have been complete until the House of Justice was elected and convened to ratify the appointment. There was no House of Justice unti 1963.

The Hands of the Cause of God assembled functioned much like the House of Justice, that's why SHoghi Effendi filled the ranks of the Hands after the passing of his grandfather, Abdu'l Baha.

When Shoghi Effendi passed away in London in 1957, the Hands assembled in Haifa to go through his desk and documents. They reported that there was no appointment to be found. Shoghi Effendi has no progeny, the Hands -- all 27 of them signed a document saying there was no one to appoint. Mason Remey signed this document.

Later the Hands announced the House of Justice would be elected in 1963 as Shoghi Effendi had intended. The House would rule on the question of the Guardianship. Baha`u'llah and Abdu'l Baha both had written that the function of the House would be to rule upon matters NOT covered in the Writings. All the Hands lsigned the document--including Mason Remey.

Later, the Hands voted to exclude themselves from election to the House and service on the International Baha`i Council (the embrionic House) to make the institutions of the Hands and the Council entirely seperate.

Mason Remey withdrew from the Holy Land without signing that document, though all the other Hands signed. His sole claim to the future Guardianship was his presidency of the Council.

After this he made his announcement that he was the 2nd Guardian by behest of his presidency of the Internatioinal Baha`i Council. Of the thirty or so National Spiritual Assemblies at the time only the French National Assembly voted to support Remey as Guardian and that by a scant 5-4 vote.

At that point the Hands of the Cause declared Remey a covenant breaker, and removed him from their number. Now did they have the right to do that?

Yes, explicitly from the Will and Testament of Abdu'l Baha they had that right and obligation:

"My object is to show that the Hands of the Cause of God must be ever watchful and so soon as they find anyone beginning to oppose and protest against the Guardian of the Cause of God, cast him out from the congregation of the people of Baha and in no wise accept any excuse from him. How often hath grievous error been disguised in the garb of truth, that it might sow the seeds of doubt in the hearts of men!"
(Abdu'l-Baha, The Will and Testament, p. 11)

"Today no power can conserve the oneness of the Bahá'í world save the Covenant of God; otherwise differences like unto a most great tempest will encompass the Bahá'í world. It is evident that the axis of the oneness of the world of humanity is the power of the Covenant and nothing else. Had the Covenant not come to pass, had it not been revealed from the Supreme Pen and had not the Book of the Covenant, like unto the ray of the Sun of Reality, illuminated the world, the forces of the Cause of God would have been utterly scattered and certain souls who were the prisoners of their own passions and lusts would have taken into their hands an axe, cutting the root of this Blessed Tree. Every person would have pushed forward his own desire and every individual aired his own opinion! Notwithstanding this great Covenant, a few negligent souls galloped with their chargers into the battlefield, thinking perchance they might be able to weaken the foundation of the Cause of God: but praise be to God, all of them were afflicted with regret and loss, and ere long they shall see themselves in poignant despair. Therefore, in the beginning one must make his steps firm in the Covenant -- so that the confirmations of Bahá'u'lláh may encircle from all sides, the cohorts of the Supreme Concourse may become the supporters and the helpers, and the exhortations and advices of 'Abdu'l-Bahá, like unto the pictures engraved on stone, may remain permanent and ineffaceable in the tablets of the hearts."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 425)

If you want to lament the fall of Mason Remey don't expect the Baha`i's of the world to echo your concerns. He was a positive force in the Baha`i world until his own ego and lust for power caused him to demean all his prior works by breaking the covenant of God.

The only positive effect he has on the faith anymore at all is that his fate is a warning to those who might be swept away by their own ego and lust for power.

Regards,
Scott

Popeyesays · 11-22-2006, 05:13 AM

DynoMight · 11-22-2006, 02:15 PM

In "The Seven Valleys and The Four Valleys" Baha'u'llah specifically says to step back at what appears to be the threshold of divine union. My interpretation of it (and it is not mine alone) is that this represents an incomplete mystical union with the divine. You are to step back unless you are in complete agreement with someone else's previous revelation. Basically what it says is that if you don't agree with Me then you shouldn't enter into union with the divine. Again it is just a way of maintaining the status quo.

In fairness this sort of abbreviated or interupted mystical experience isn't exclusive to the Baha'i. Both Islam and the Christian religion use the same principle. Jesus or Muhammud had the revelation about what you should do and how you should behave so don't go having any revelations of your own. While I agree that some people (perhaps many people) do not possess enough innate moral sensibilities to come up with a constructive (or at least benign) revelation that does not mean that everyone should avoid complete mystical experience. In fact I argue to not allow good people to have this experience weakens nearly everyone's religious experience.

On the subject of all the Baha'i splinter groups; "The institution of a 'living' Guardian" are just words without meaning. The living guardian written of by Baha'u'llah was unabiguously meant to be an living (meaning alive on this earth not dead only to be recognized as a concept) man. Afterall in Islam Muhammud is spiritually alive and well and is considered to guide the clerics. The same goes for Christianity. Jesus is alive and guides us. None of this has kept either Islam or Christianity from splintering into many factions and the same clearly applies to the Baha'is. Baha'is however take solice in the fact that any one sect of the Baha'i Faith isn't that large. This is merely the case because the Baha'i Faith in total isn't that large. Afterall Christianity held together pretty well in its early formation. It wasn't until it became a popular religion that you had the development of major sects. The Baha'i await "Entry by Troops" with zeal but what they do not expect (and will certainly find) is that with their success these minor skisms will become major fractures. I for one do not think that it will ever come to that. The Baha'i Faith's numbers are dwindling as we speak. Time for a new revelation.

What say you Popeye (and any other Baha'is) to the study on mystical experince done by Johns Hopkins University (Johns Hopkins Gazette | July 24, 2006)? Baha'is are supposed to embrace the resolution of science and religion. They aren't supposed to ignore science as that way leads to superstition according to Baha'u'llah and Abdul Baha.

arthra · 11-22-2006, 05:25 PM

Dyno,

For your information, Baha'is are not Sufis and do not have the same doctrines of mysticism held say by Vedantists or schools of pantheism.

Quoting from your Johns Hopkins article:

"The authors acknowledge the unusual nature of the work, treading, as it does, a fine line between neuroscience and areas most would consider outside the realm of science."

It would seem this is still an experimental area and the findings are still controversial even among scientists themselves. So Baha'is are not ignoring it and will await what the course of experiments to see how it can best be used perhaps therapeutically so there is no conflict with Baha'i Faith so long as competent physicians are involved.

- Art

DynoMight · 11-23-2006, 04:49 AM

Of course Baha'is are not Sufi. But they do have things in commom. Namely that they are not really allowed to enter full revelation.

In Matrixism people are not only allowed to enter full revelation but they encouraged to do so. Also for your information Matrixism is not the same as pantheism.

Popeyesays · 11-23-2006, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DynoMight

In "The Seven Valleys and The Four Valleys" Baha'u'llah specifically says to step back at what appears to be the threshold of divine union. My interpretation of it (and it is not mine alone) is that this represents an incomplete mystical union with the divine. You are to step back unless you are in complete agreement with someone else's previous revelation. Basically what it says is that if you don't agree with Me then you shouldn't enter into union with the divine. Again it is just a way of maintaining the status quo.

In fairness this sort of abbreviated or interupted mystical experience isn't exclusive to the Baha'i. Both Islam and the Christian religion use the same principle. Jesus or Muhammud had the revelation about what you should do and how you should behave so don't go having any revelations of your own. While I agree that some people (perhaps many people) do not possess enough innate moral sensibilities to come up with a constructive (or at least benign) revelation that does not mean that everyone should avoid complete mystical experience. In fact I argue to not allow good people to have this experience weakens nearly everyone's religious experience.

On the subject of all the Baha'i splinter groups; "The institution of a 'living' Guardian" are just words without meaning. The living guardian written of by Baha'u'llah was unabiguously meant to be an living (meaning alive on this earth not dead only to be recognized as a concept) man. Afterall in Islam Muhammud is spiritually alive and well and is considered to guide the clerics. The same goes for Christianity. Jesus is alive and guides us. None of this has kept either Islam or Christianity from splintering into many factions and the same clearly applies to the Baha'is. Baha'is however take solice in the fact that any one sect of the Baha'i Faith isn't that large. This is merely the case because the Baha'i Faith in total isn't that large. Afterall Christianity held together pretty well in its early formation. It wasn't until it became a popular religion that you had the development of major sects. The Baha'i await "Entry by Troops" with zeal but what they do not expect (and will certainly find) is that with their success these minor skisms will become major fractures. I for one do not think that it will ever come to that. The Baha'i Faith's numbers are dwindling as we speak. Time for a new revelation.

What say you Popeye (and any other Baha'is) to the study on mystical experince done by Johns Hopkins University (Johns Hopkins Gazette | July 24, 2006)? Baha'is are supposed to embrace the resolution of science and religion. They aren't supposed to ignore science as that way leads to superstition according to Baha'u'llah and Abdul Baha.

Actually outside sources estimate the membership of the Baha`i 'splinter groups' to be less than a thousand world-wide. There are about 7,000,000 Baha`i's around the world. That is an infinitessimal percentage and causes believers.com to record that the Baha`i Faith is the most unified religion in the world.

As time passes and the splinters continue to wither away we'll see that imperceptible ratio continue to nearly zero.

Regards,
Scott

Popeyesays · 11-23-2006, 04:57 PM

The texts of the Baha`i Faith make clear that an individual's 'presonal revelation' cannot merge with God because God, in His Essence, is unknowable to anything BUT God. The idea that the individual can merge completely with God is entirely foreign to the Baha`i Faith, and yet another reason that trying to find justification within Abdu'l Baha's words to support Matrixism is ridiculous.

Are you a former Baha`i or a former member of one of the CB groups? Why do you work so hard to tie the faith into this invention of matrixism.

Regards, Scott

DynoMight · 11-25-2006, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Why do you work so hard to tie the Baha'i Faith into ... Matrixism.[?]

One might as well ask "Why does the Baha'i religion labor so hard to tie itself in with all previous religions?" or "Why did Jesus of Nazareth try so hard to tie His movement in with Judaic prophecy?"

That being said I don't think I have to "work" very hard to tie Matrixism into the Baha'i religon. Matrixism by its own admission is clearly a legacy of the Baha'i.

I might add that Abdul Baha made quite an effort himself to tie the Baha'i Faith in with Dharminic tradition. Unfortunately he did not go so far as to allow for unstunted or rather complete mystical experience. Because of this the Baha'i Faith isn't very Dharminic and can hardly lay claim to its lineage. Matrixism on the other hand with its full recognition of mystical communion completes the re-unification of eastern and western religion started in small part by Abdul Baha.

"Therefore, for the perfect man there are two kinds of birth: the first, physical birth, is from the matrix of the mother, the second, or spiritual birth, is from the world of nature. In both he is without knowledge of the new world of existence he is entering." ~ A. Baha

"The path of the One is made by the many." ~ the Oracle

Could this "perfect man" be the One? I think that Pathists (followers of Matrixism) would answer "Yes."

DynoMight · 11-25-2006, 07:19 PM

I think that you will find as the Baha'i Faith grows you will find ever more splinter groups. It only stands to reason. Christianity was very well untied itself until its ranks began to grow more dense and expansive.

It is interesting to note that India has both the largest and most densely populated Baha'i communities in the world and the same time it is also home to the most robust of Baha'i splinter groups.

The Baha'i Faith is dead. Long live Matrixism!

Popeyesays · 11-26-2006, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DynoMight

I think that you will find as the Baha'i Faith grows you will find ever more splinter groups. It only stands to reason. Christianity was very well untied itself until its ranks began to grow more dense and expansive.

It is interesting to note that India has both the largest and most densely populated Baha'i communities in the world and the same time it is also home to the most robust of Baha'i splinter groups.

The Baha'i Faith is dead. Long live Matrixism!

If it were splintering more at this time, there would be more splinter groups with larger memberships. That isn't the case.

I suspect matrixism will be a flash in the pan as scientology seems to be going.

Works of fiction make truly poor bases for establishing religion.

Regads,
Scott

11-14-2006, 09:50 PM	#31 (permalink)
Popeyesays Executive Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma Posts: 606	Re: Baha'i and Matrixism? Actually, there is only the reference to the Matrix in reference to the womb of the mother before the child is born. This is quite clear if you actually READ any of Abdu'l Baha's talks. Most Matrixists don't bother to do that, sad . . . . Anyway, if you want to take a look at the Baha`i Faith and future culture, please read my novel The Sword of the Dajjal coming out in February, 2007. [Sci-Fi for pre-orders]. As to Remeyite Baha`i's? There really aren't any. The Remeyite 'Orthodox' schism shattered at least three more times, dividing over individuals claiming to have been appointed by Remey. Since Remey actually became quite senile he clearly appointed three seperate "Guardians" to succeed him, one of which foreswore any claim to any belief, and another unrelated Fremchman subsequently made a claim to the "Fourth Guardianship". No more Remeyites in existence as best I can tell, and I have made some search for them. They are Jensenites, Marangellists and several others, but no Remeyites. He's been dead for more than thirty years. For more information on the phenomena of Remey, read: Mason Remey and Those Who Followed Him Regards, Scott

11-14-2006, 09:56 PM	#32 (permalink)
Popeyesays Executive Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma Posts: 606	Re: Baha'i and Matrixism? Oh, it seems one of the basic tenets of the Matrix believers is the use of drugs and psychedelics. This is highly contrary to the teachings of the Baha`i Faith. No drug for the purpose of altering the consciousness is ever condoned. Baha`u'llah teaches us that the human mind is PERFECT to commune with God. To alter it is to open one's self to the most pernicious of idle fancies and vain imaginings, and is unbelievably dangerous to the soul. Regards, Scott

11-15-2006, 01:08 AM	#33 (permalink)
arthra A friend Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Sunny Southern California Posts: 1,389	Re: Baha'i and Matrixism? "....the human mind is PERFECT to commune with God. To alter it is to open one's self to the most pernicious of idle fancies and vain imaginings, and is unbelievably dangerous to the soul." Thanks for sharing that! The perfection of man is a concept that few I think appreciate. - Art

11-21-2006, 04:45 PM	#34 (permalink)
DynoMight Junior Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 69	Re: Baha'i and Matrixism? The point is that the "living guardian" was promised in the Baha'i writings to be the solution to the skisms that often plague religion. Unfortunately as I have said before The Hands of the Cause of the Baha'i faith took it upon themselves to do away with a living guardian. According to the Baha'u'llah own writings this will guarantee skism or the creation of opposing Baha'i Sects. Regardless who leads them and by what name you call them there are many sects of the Baha'i Faith that are alive and if Baha'u'llah's own words are any indication there always will be. As for psychedelics creating idle fancy the same charge has been leveled against mysticism in general. Of course without true mysticism a religion has no believable base from which to profess. Again with regard to psychedelics and mystical spiritual experience I direct your attention to a recent study done at Johns Hopkins University: Johns Hopkins Gazette \| July 24, 2006 The Baha'i Faith puts the brakes on mysticism such that no one should reach the ultimate goal of the mystic which is divine union and transcendental awareness. This is plainly done such as to maintain the status quo with regard to not creating new types of social order. But the world keeps on changing (these days very rapidly) and without free mystics or a "living guardian" the Baha'i Faith has no real way to adapt. It is thus stuck in the mud. Perhaps this is the main reason that the ranks of the Baha'i are dwindling. ps- By the way that "idle fancies and vain imaginings" quote is weak. It's the Baha'i equivalent of "the Lord works in mysterious ways". People are much more intelligent and well educated these days. They demand actual reasons and proof (Johns Hopkins Gazette \| July 24, 2006).

11-22-2006, 02:36 AM	#35 (permalink)
arthra A friend Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Sunny Southern California Posts: 1,389	Re: Baha'i and Matrixism? Hmmm... Dyno... We've been over this in previous posts on this thread about the Guardianship ...that it continues to be a living institution in our Faith. There is mysticism in the Baha'i Faith if you'd care to research it See Mysticism and the Baha'i Community Mysticism and the Baha'i Faith Baha'i Mysticism Resources and the Faith is growing and adapting as we speak. But it has precious little to do with psychedelics or magic "shrooms" or "Matrixism"... - Art

11-22-2006, 05:11 AM	#36 (permalink)
Popeyesays Executive Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma Posts: 606	Re: Baha'i and Matrixism? Dyno, I begin to wonder if you have a point to make. You seem very ignorant of the workings of the Baha`i Administrative Order. You seem to think that Shoghi Effendi as Guardian was within his rights to die without appointing a successor. Abdu'l Baha appointed him to be the Interpreter of the Sacred Writings. He called upon all the Afnan (descendants of the Bab and Baha`u'llah (of whom ONLY Shoghi Effendi and his siblings existed, during the Guardianship all of his siblings became covenant breakers). That gives him the right. If he HAD appointed a Guardian it could not have been complete until the House of Justice was elected and convened to ratify the appointment. There was no House of Justice unti 1963. The Hands of the Cause of God assembled functioned much like the House of Justice, that's why SHoghi Effendi filled the ranks of the Hands after the passing of his grandfather, Abdu'l Baha. When Shoghi Effendi passed away in London in 1957, the Hands assembled in Haifa to go through his desk and documents. They reported that there was no appointment to be found. Shoghi Effendi has no progeny, the Hands -- all 27 of them signed a document saying there was no one to appoint. Mason Remey signed this document. Later the Hands announced the House of Justice would be elected in 1963 as Shoghi Effendi had intended. The House would rule on the question of the Guardianship. Baha`u'llah and Abdu'l Baha both had written that the function of the House would be to rule upon matters NOT covered in the Writings. All the Hands lsigned the document--including Mason Remey. Later, the Hands voted to exclude themselves from election to the House and service on the International Baha`i Council (the embrionic House) to make the institutions of the Hands and the Council entirely seperate. Mason Remey withdrew from the Holy Land without signing that document, though all the other Hands signed. His sole claim to the future Guardianship was his presidency of the Council. After this he made his announcement that he was the 2nd Guardian by behest of his presidency of the Internatioinal Baha`i Council. Of the thirty or so National Spiritual Assemblies at the time only the French National Assembly voted to support Remey as Guardian and that by a scant 5-4 vote. At that point the Hands of the Cause declared Remey a covenant breaker, and removed him from their number. Now did they have the right to do that? Yes, explicitly from the Will and Testament of Abdu'l Baha they had that right and obligation: "My object is to show that the Hands of the Cause of God must be ever watchful and so soon as they find anyone beginning to oppose and protest against the Guardian of the Cause of God, cast him out from the congregation of the people of Baha and in no wise accept any excuse from him. How often hath grievous error been disguised in the garb of truth, that it might sow the seeds of doubt in the hearts of men!" (Abdu'l-Baha, The Will and Testament, p. 11) "Today no power can conserve the oneness of the Bahá'í world save the Covenant of God; otherwise differences like unto a most great tempest will encompass the Bahá'í world. It is evident that the axis of the oneness of the world of humanity is the power of the Covenant and nothing else. Had the Covenant not come to pass, had it not been revealed from the Supreme Pen and had not the Book of the Covenant, like unto the ray of the Sun of Reality, illuminated the world, the forces of the Cause of God would have been utterly scattered and certain souls who were the prisoners of their own passions and lusts would have taken into their hands an axe, cutting the root of this Blessed Tree. Every person would have pushed forward his own desire and every individual aired his own opinion! Notwithstanding this great Covenant, a few negligent souls galloped with their chargers into the battlefield, thinking perchance they might be able to weaken the foundation of the Cause of God: but praise be to God, all of them were afflicted with regret and loss, and ere long they shall see themselves in poignant despair. Therefore, in the beginning one must make his steps firm in the Covenant -- so that the confirmations of Bahá'u'lláh may encircle from all sides, the cohorts of the Supreme Concourse may become the supporters and the helpers, and the exhortations and advices of 'Abdu'l-Bahá, like unto the pictures engraved on stone, may remain permanent and ineffaceable in the tablets of the hearts." (Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 425) If you want to lament the fall of Mason Remey don't expect the Baha`i's of the world to echo your concerns. He was a positive force in the Baha`i world until his own ego and lust for power caused him to demean all his prior works by breaking the covenant of God. The only positive effect he has on the faith anymore at all is that his fate is a warning to those who might be swept away by their own ego and lust for power. Regards, Scott

11-22-2006, 05:13 AM	#37 (permalink)
Popeyesays Executive Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma Posts: 606	Re: Baha'i and Matrixism? No mysticism in the Faith???????????????? Mysticism REQUIRES the use of psychedelics?????????????? More nonsense. Mysticism and the faith? It is highly mystical, and it needs no alteration to the consciousness to be mystical. The Seven Valleys and the Four Valleys are monuments to the mysticism of the Sufi's. So much that the "Darvish Muhammad" as Baha`u'llah was known to them is one of their most esteemed mystics. The Seven Valleys (on Planet Bahá'í) "Realms of Consciousness (Nasut)" "Reflections on The Seven Valleys" The Seven Valleys (illustrated text) Study Outline for The Seven Valleys The Seven Valleys: A Meditation by George Townshend Mystical Aspects of the Bahá'í Faith as presented in The Seven Valleys The Realms of Divine Existence as Described in the Tablet of All Food What is Bahá'u'lláh's Message to the Sufis? Comparison of The Seven Valleys and the American Indian Peace Shield The Seven Valleys--Preamble The Seven Valleys Magical Mystical Tour Comes to Atlanta! The Seven Valleys: Commentary and Text The Seven Valleys and The Four Valleys: Preface Mystical Work Inspires Playwright The Seven Valleys and The Four Valleys: Bahá'u'lláh The Seven Valleys and The Four Valleys: English, Persian, Arabic The Seven Valleys: Audio Presentation The Seven Valleys: Faculty Notes The Wisdom of Luqman: Valley of Wonderment Bahá'í Writings: The Seven Valleys Knowledge Map of The Seven Valleys Seven Valleys of Bahá'u'lláh and Farid ud-Din Attar The Four Valleys (on Planet Bahá'í) The Four Valleys: Tablet Study Outline Will, Knowledge, and Love in The Four Valleys The Worlds of God The Four Valleys: Faculty Notes Comparison of Islamic Religious Modes with The Four Valleys of Bahá'u'lláh Are the Four Valleys Four Stages in One Path or are They Four Paths? The Four Valleys: A Commentary The Four Valleys: Russian Text Knowledge Map of The Four Valleys A Plan for Deepening on The Four Valleys The Four Valleys: Audio Presentation The Hidden Words (on Planet Bahá'í) A History of The Hidden Words Conqueror of Hearts A Study Guide to The Hidden Words The Hidden Words Knowledge Map of The Hidden Words Concordance for The Arabic Hidden Words Hidden Words Affirmations Allusion to Progressive Revelation in the Persian Hidden Words The Hidden Words: Audio Presentation The Hidden Words: Faculty Notes The Hidden Words: Compilation from "Lights of Guidance" The Hidden Words: Tablet Study Outline Love Relationship Between God and Humanity The Hidden Words of Baha'u'llah: A Reflection Calligraphie de Textes Saints The Hidden Words of Bahá'u'lláh International Bahá'í Library: Collections About The Hidden Words A Concordance for The Arabic Hidden Words The Leiden List: The Hidden Words Commentary on The Hidden Words by Adib Taherzadeh The Kitáb-i-Íqán The Kitáb-i-Íqán, 1882 Bombay Lithograph Edition Glossary to the Kitáb-i-Íqán The Station of the Kitáb-i-Íqán A Study of the Kitáb-i-Íqán Study Outline to the Kitáb-i-Íqán Kitáb-i-Íqán in Persian Kitáb-i-Íqán in Arabic On-Line Course on the Kitáb-i-Íqán from Africa Bahá-u-lláh: The Kitáb-I-Íqán Companion to the Kitáb-I-Íqán Kitáb-i-Íqán: Index The Kitáb-i-Íqán Seeing With the Eye of God Bahá'u'lláh's Prophetology Kitáb-i-Íqán The Kitáb-i-Íqán: Audio Presentation Dating the Kitáb-i-Íqán The Kitáb-i-Íqán: An excerpt from Ugo Giachery Kitáb-i-Íqán: Faculty Notes Kitáb-i-Íqán Kitáb-i-Íqán: A Study Guide The Book of Certitude: Commentary from God Passes By Symbol and Secret Quranic Quotations in the Kitab-i-Iqan I also recommend the Fire Tablet, the Long Healing Prayer, The Tablet of the Holy Mariner, The Tablet of Ahmad, and the Bab's prayers from the prayer book compilation, particularly the Bab's Prayers for Protection. So far without an authorized translation, the Ode of the Dove and the Tablet of All Food. If your Persian is as inadequate as mine is, these are available in provisional translation at Baha`i Studies. After you've read the material talk to me about a "lack of mysticism" in the Baha`i Faith. Until you do read them, you're talking through your hat. You are telling Baha`i's what they believe, and no one appointed you the Interpreter of the sacred text. There is NO living interpreter of the text. Not even the House of Justice can interpret the text. Regards, Scott

11-22-2006, 02:15 PM	#38 (permalink)
DynoMight Junior Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 69	Re: Baha'i and Matrixism? In "The Seven Valleys and The Four Valleys" Baha'u'llah specifically says to step back at what appears to be the threshold of divine union. My interpretation of it (and it is not mine alone) is that this represents an incomplete mystical union with the divine. You are to step back unless you are in complete agreement with someone else's previous revelation. Basically what it says is that if you don't agree with Me then you shouldn't enter into union with the divine. Again it is just a way of maintaining the status quo. In fairness this sort of abbreviated or interupted mystical experience isn't exclusive to the Baha'i. Both Islam and the Christian religion use the same principle. Jesus or Muhammud had the revelation about what you should do and how you should behave so don't go having any revelations of your own. While I agree that some people (perhaps many people) do not possess enough innate moral sensibilities to come up with a constructive (or at least benign) revelation that does not mean that everyone should avoid complete mystical experience. In fact I argue to not allow good people to have this experience weakens nearly everyone's religious experience. On the subject of all the Baha'i splinter groups; "The institution of a 'living' Guardian" are just words without meaning. The living guardian written of by Baha'u'llah was unabiguously meant to be an living (meaning alive on this earth not dead only to be recognized as a concept) man. Afterall in Islam Muhammud is spiritually alive and well and is considered to guide the clerics. The same goes for Christianity. Jesus is alive and guides us. None of this has kept either Islam or Christianity from splintering into many factions and the same clearly applies to the Baha'is. Baha'is however take solice in the fact that any one sect of the Baha'i Faith isn't that large. This is merely the case because the Baha'i Faith in total isn't that large. Afterall Christianity held together pretty well in its early formation. It wasn't until it became a popular religion that you had the development of major sects. The Baha'i await "Entry by Troops" with zeal but what they do not expect (and will certainly find) is that with their success these minor skisms will become major fractures. I for one do not think that it will ever come to that. The Baha'i Faith's numbers are dwindling as we speak. Time for a new revelation. What say you Popeye (and any other Baha'is) to the study on mystical experince done by Johns Hopkins University (Johns Hopkins Gazette \| July 24, 2006)? Baha'is are supposed to embrace the resolution of science and religion. They aren't supposed to ignore science as that way leads to superstition according to Baha'u'llah and Abdul Baha.

11-22-2006, 05:25 PM	#39 (permalink)
arthra A friend Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Sunny Southern California Posts: 1,389	Re: Baha'i and Matrixism? Dyno, For your information, Baha'is are not Sufis and do not have the same doctrines of mysticism held say by Vedantists or schools of pantheism. Quoting from your Johns Hopkins article: "The authors acknowledge the unusual nature of the work, treading, as it does, a fine line between neuroscience and areas most would consider outside the realm of science." It would seem this is still an experimental area and the findings are still controversial even among scientists themselves. So Baha'is are not ignoring it and will await what the course of experiments to see how it can best be used perhaps therapeutically so there is no conflict with Baha'i Faith so long as competent physicians are involved. - Art

11-23-2006, 04:49 AM	#40 (permalink)
DynoMight Junior Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 69	Re: Baha'i and Matrixism? Of course Baha'is are not Sufi. But they do have things in commom. Namely that they are not really allowed to enter full revelation. In Matrixism people are not only allowed to enter full revelation but they encouraged to do so. Also for your information Matrixism is not the same as pantheism.

11-23-2006, 04:57 PM	#42 (permalink)
Popeyesays Executive Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma Posts: 606	Re: Baha'i and Matrixism? The texts of the Baha`i Faith make clear that an individual's 'presonal revelation' cannot merge with God because God, in His Essence, is unknowable to anything BUT God. The idea that the individual can merge completely with God is entirely foreign to the Baha`i Faith, and yet another reason that trying to find justification within Abdu'l Baha's words to support Matrixism is ridiculous. Are you a former Baha`i or a former member of one of the CB groups? Why do you work so hard to tie the faith into this invention of matrixism. Regards, Scott

11-25-2006, 07:19 PM	#44 (permalink)
DynoMight Junior Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 69	Re: Baha'i and Matrixism? I think that you will find as the Baha'i Faith grows you will find ever more splinter groups. It only stands to reason. Christianity was very well untied itself until its ranks began to grow more dense and expansive. It is interesting to note that India has both the largest and most densely populated Baha'i communities in the world and the same time it is also home to the most robust of Baha'i splinter groups. The Baha'i Faith is dead. Long live Matrixism!

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