Baha'i and Matrixism?

[smkolins]

BTW, if you are looking for scifi/fa connections with the Baha'i Faith I would track down Tom Ligon's short stories "The Devil and the Deep Black Void" and "The Gardener" of which he speaks of a Baha'i culture and its responce to a terrorist group. You can read some online comments by him here . Tom isn't a Baha'i and one can argue the stance he takes. But it still makes interesting reading!

But another avenue is to be found in the body of work by Maya Kaathryn Bohnhoff - she is a Baha'i who has written several books and many short stories. Some feature Baha'i characters or themes explicitly, some without being very direct in noting their basis, and some have little or nothing to do with the Baha'i Faith. In wider circulation I would point to her book series "The Meri" in which a society is going through massive changes and much of the theological background (but not all!) is based on Baha'i quotes. She has a web page -The Mystic Fig

[DynoMight]

I think that Matrixism could relate to the Baha'i Faith well in that it could mark the return of the living Guardian. You see the administrative order of the Baha'i Faith is supposed to be headed by a living Guardian who is a single person with executive power. But when Shogi Effendi the then current Guardian died in 1957 without naming his succesor the Faith lost that which they were never supposed to be without. Apparently in 1963 the spiritual assemblies of all the countries with Baha'i populations voted to do away with the Guardianship and have the Baha'is be led solely by the elected body that is called the Universal House of Justice. Well all countries voted for this except for France. The National Spiritual Assembly of France apparently wanted to stay loyal to Baha'i scripture and maintain said Guardianship.

Apparently all of these facts are something that Baha'i are supposed to shunt. I am interested to see how Baha'is will respond to this on a message board that they do not control and thus can't lock or delete.

[9Harmony]

Originally Posted by DynoMight

I think that Matrixism could relate to the Baha'i Faith well in that it could mark the return of the living Guardian. You see the administrative order of the Baha'i Faith is supposed to be headed by a living Guardian who is a single person with executive power. But when Shogi Effendi the then current Guardian died in 1957 without naming his succesor the Faith lost that which they were never supposed to be without. Apparently in 1963 the spiritual assemblies of all the countries with Baha'i populations voted to do away with the Guardianship and have the Baha'is be led solely by the elected body that is called the Universal House of Justice. Well all countries voted for this except for France. The National Spiritual Assembly of France apparently wanted to stay loyal to Baha'i scripture and maintain said Guardianship.

My Friend,

i responded to this in the Baha'i thread regarding a living guardian, but immediately what comes to mind from this post is that if they had really wanted to stay loyal to Baha'i Scripture, they would have supported the decision of the majority as that is a fundamental underlying principle in the Faith.

And no, the Guardianship was not 'done away with'. Shoghi Effendi was, is and always will be the Guardian of the Baha'i dispensation.

-Amy

[9Harmony]

smkolins wrote: "The part about mirroring I think emphasizes the other direction - everything in the spiritual world has a reflection in this world. "

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Yes, brilliant! Can you find that quote for me? I don't know enough of the specific words to find in Ocean.

peace,
lunamoth

Hi Laurie,

I see you asked this ages ago. Here's one quote in this vein.

"The worlds of God are in perfect harmony and correspondence one with another. Each world in this limitless universe is, as it were, a mirror reflecting the history and nature of all the rest. The physical universe is, likewise, in perfect correspondence with the spiritual or divine realm. The world of matter is an outer expression or facsimile of the inner kingdom of spirit. The world of minds corresponds with the world of hearts. " -Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 270

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/P...=highlight#gr1

Have a wonderful weekend!

-Amy

[DynoMight]

9Harm,

Everywhere in the Baha'i Faith's sacred writings where "the Guardian" is refered to he is refered to as a "living" Guardian. It is very clear by context that "living" is meant in the literal sense of the word. It was in fact the system of appointing an unending succession of living guardians that was supposed to be the primary way to prevent schism in the Baha'i religion. Because of the lack of a Guardian there is no longer only one Baha'i church. Besides the Baha'i Faith based in Haifa there is also the The Orthodox Baha'i Faith based out of Tarbiyat.

Wasn't it Shogi Effendi himself who wrote "Divorced from the institution of the Guardianship the World Order of Baha'u'llah would be mutilated"?

Cheers,
Mark

[arthra]

For Baha'is there's been no divorce from the Institution of the Guardianship...We continue to observe what the Guardian has interpreted and maintained.

Here's what the Guardian himself expressed that I think is a very important point:

"My purpose is this, that ere the expiration of a thousand years, no one has the right to utter a single word, even to claim the station of Guardianship. The Most Holy Book is the Book to which all peoples shall refer, and in it the Laws of God have been revealed. Laws not mentioned in the Book should be referred to the decision of the Universal House of Justice. There will be no grounds for difference... Beware, beware lest anyone create a rift or stir up sedition. Should there be differences of opinion, the Supreme House of Justice would immediately resolve the problems. Whatever will be its decision, by majority vote, shall be the real truth, inasmuch as that House is under the protection, unerring guidance, and care of the one true Lord. He shall guard it from error and will protect it under the wing of His sanctity and infallibility. He who opposes it is cast out and will eventually be of the defeated."

Source:

http://bahai-library.com/?file=uhj_u...undation_cause

People can claim they are the "guardian" and claim whatever.

People are free to choose what they want of course and they can call themselves whatever they please but for Baha'is it continues to be an easy choice to make.

- Art

[DynoMight]

Art,

I know the Baha'i Faith's position on all of this stuff and I have read what the Orthodox Baha'is have to say also. They seem to have a very legitimate line of succession on the Guardianship as Mason Remey was Shogi Effendi's adopted son. Heck he adopted him at the age of fourty or something. Why else would he do this except that he wanted Remey to succeed him as Guardian. Of course the NSA of France thought the same thing.

I guess the Orthodox would argue that The Hands of the Cause over stepped their authority by contradicting what Abdul Baha had already written on and canonized. It does seem like a huge contradiction.

Like I said I know the Baha'i Faith's position on this so I'm not gonna bug you about it anymore but I have to ask just one question. You see I found this quote on an Orthodox Baha'i Faith website: "Divorced from the institution of the Guardianship the World Order of Baha'u'llah would be mutilated". My questions is did Shogi Effendi actually write this?

[arthra]

If as you say "Dyno" you know the Baha'is Faith's position on "all this stuff" then you'd know that we feel it is passing strange and patently absurd that Mason Remey a much older man would be an "adopted son" of Shoghi Effendi.

Mason Remey served the Faith for many years even in the time of Abdul-Baha and was an architect of some of the proposed Houses of Worship .. He was well liked and appreciated but it's important to note that he signed off being a Guardian after the passing of Shoghi Effendi in 1957 by acknowledging that the Guardian had left no Will or indication of a successor..this cannot be denied. He signed off on this along with the other Hands at the time.

It was three years later in 1960 that Remey announced he was the next Guardian and stated his "case". By that time Remey was very advanced in years and I believe somewhat befuddled in his thinking.

His claim to guardianship was very quickly denounced by the Hands of the Cause of God appointed by Shoghi Effendi himself to defend the Cause and all the National Spiritual Assemblies of the Baha'i world with the exception of the NSA of France.. and even the Baha'is of France soon afterwards reconstituted their NSA.

The Universal House of Justice was the only institution that was provided by Baha'u'llah and later Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi with the authority and right to govern and carry on the Cause of God and that Institution was elected and established in 1963.

Mason later attempted to appoint additional people as guardians to succeed him but none of them were successful or accepted by the Baha'is and he attempted to set up councils but these were not successful either.

- Art

[DynoMight]

I beg to differ Art. It seems that there is a succesful schism of the Baha'i Faith. The Orthodox Baha'i Faith is apparently gaining a significant following in India as well as in the USA.

Apparently Shogi Effendi's adoption of Mason Remey is a matter of record. Why else would the NSA of France have voted the way they did? The fact that he was so old when adopted just further shows Shogi Effendi's intent that he would become the next Guardian of the Faith. As for the NSA of France's reconstitution that was only because they were disbanded by the hands of the cause in order to squelch their vote.

Without the Living Guardian that is promised in Baha'i scriptures the Administrative Order of Baha'u'llah is without an executive branch. The importance of having an active executive branch was stressed by Baha'u'llah, Abdul Baha and by Shogi Effendi. In the Secret of Divine Civilization Abdul Baha goes on at length about this.

It seems like a huge contradiction that the universal house of justice cannot contradict any of the mandates of Baha'u'llah, Abdul Baha or Shogi Effendi but that there position of existence without a Guardian came about through such a huge contradiction to what the Prophet had indicated.

Without an actual executive branch it seems that the Baha'i Faith is frozen in time. Just like a democracy without an executive branch I doubt they will be able to react sufficiently to our quickly changing times.

Wasn't the Adminstration of the Baha'i Faith supposed to blend the best of what democracy and monarchy had to offer? How can this be when they don't even have an executive branch at all?

Anyway as told by the Prophet, Master and the first Guardian the Guardianship was supposed to guarantee the Baha'i Faith against schism. They were right about that the guardianship was lost and now there is schism. Sometimes greater sometimes lesser but always schism and that's so not Baha'i.

[I, Brian]

Well, by all accounts, any schism within the Baha'i faith is relatively small by comparison.

[DynoMight]

By Comparison to the Heterodox Baha'i Faith the Orthodox Baha'i Faith is a relatively large alternative. You will see that if the Heterodox church grows the Orthodox church will grow proportionally as an alternative. There will never be just one Baha'i church ever again unless something is done to restore the covenant.

As I eluded to before this loss of the guardianship (the lack of an executive branch) opens the door for religions like Matrixism. Considering the alternative of being stuck in the mud during such turbulent times it may be for the best that not only is there a prophet after Jesus and Muhammad but there will soon be one after Baha'u'llah as well.

[arthra]

Dyno wrote:

By Comparison to the Heterodox Baha'i Faith the Orthodox Baha'i Faith is a relatively large alternative. You will see that if the Heterodox church grows the Orthodox church will grow proportionally as an alternative. There will never be just one Baha'i church ever again unless something is done to restore the covenant.

My comment:

I think the use of the word "church" when applied to the Baha'i Faith is misleading. We are not set up like churches ..that is, we have no professional clergy nor do we Baha'is use the term "church". I think the term "church" is more purely a Christian term.

Baha'i Faith is set up on the local level per the civic or local jurisdictions...so there can only be one Local Spiritual Assembly per jurisdiction. There must be at least nine adult believers to make up an Assembly.

We have Conventions on a district level that elect a delegate(s) to attend a National Convention and the delegates in turn elect the nine members of the National Spiritual Assembly (this is true for all nations where Baha'is live except those countries where our Faith is "outlawed")...these in turn send delegates every five years to elect members of the Universal House of Justice that meets in Haifa.

The only additional point I'd like to mention is that there have been splinter groups and disaffected people in our history but they by and large have not been able to cause any major disunity or schism within our Faith.

- Art

[DynoMight]

Originally Posted by arthra

The only additional point I'd like to mention is that there have been splinter groups and disaffected people in our history but they by and large have not been able to cause any major disunity or schism within our Faith.

- Art

I disagree I think that the Orthodox Baha'i Faith represents a "major" schism. Also judging from the success in terms of popularity of the Jedi religion Matrixism could very well grow into a very significant challenge to the heterodox Baha'i Faith.

Are you familiar with Matrixism?

[I, Brian]

I'm not sure how Matrixism relates to this thread or the Baha'i faith??

[DynoMight]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

I'm not sure how Matrixism relates to this thread or the Baha'i faith??

Well the name of this thread is "Baha'i and Matrixism". So the relation of the thread to Matrixism should be apparent.

Matrixism is related to the Baha'i Faith by virtue of what is stated about the Baha'i Faith's role in the emergence of Matrixism on the Matrixism homepage.

http://www.geocities.com/matrixism2069

There are also the quotes from the Baha'i sacred writings related to The Matrix.

http://www.geocities.com/matrixism2069/quotes.html