Baha'i

[Mick]

Originally Posted by Susma Rio Sep

And maybe I might find from the pleadings of the against religion factions and of the pro religion factions something that I might really discover to be a genuine boon.

Susma Rio Sep

Bravo, Susma Rio Sep.

Baha'u'llah told us that through the independent investigation of the mysteries of God will we find truth. I really enjoyed your analysis in the above quote. Maybe this is why I enjoy religious discussion, even though many people claim you should never discuss religion or politics. I must chew on your observation some more. It may help me to become more tolerant of those that try to support a 'non-belief' ethos.

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings, all; it's good to be here! :-)

I've been reading through the postings to date, and will endeavor to provide some answers (and a few corrections) here to things that various folks have raised.

(These are in no particular order.)

First off, as has been mentioned, the correct spelling is "Baha'i." (And yes, the apostrophe is important because it's the transliteration of a <silent> letter in the original Persian that alters the pronunciation of the word.) It may help to remember that "baha" simply means "glory," and the suffix forms the adjective, so that Baha'i literally means "of Glory." :-)

The Baha'i Faith began in Persia (now Iran), and the Persian alphabet, like original Greek and Latin, uses the same symbols for letters and numbers (with every Persian word also being some number). There is therefore an informal Persian tradition of "playing" with this and using words and their corresponding numbers as equivalents. (For example, the Persian word for the city once called Adrianople has the same numeric value as the Persian word for "mystery," and therefore this city has sometimes been referred to as the "city of mystery." The Baha'i Faith itself is NOT based in any way on numerology, and with the exception noted just below essentially has nothing to do with numerology.

As to the number nine, it is significant to Baha'is, but this has nothing whatever to do with the number of living great religions in the world (while there are indeed nine of these, that's purely coincidental!). Nine is significant for two reasons:

1. The Persian word "baha" ("glory") contains the numerical values A (1), B (2), and H (5) as follows: B+A+H+A is 2+1+5+1, or 9; and hence the number 9 is used as the "number of Baha."

2. Under the conventional decimal numbering system, nine is the highest value expressible by a single digit, and nine is therefore used as a symbol of unity (which is a central focus of Baha'i teachings).

These two reasons are why the nine-pointed star is often used as a symbol of the Baha'i Faith, and why Baha'is often wear such jewelry, etc. . . .

As to reincarnation, the Baha'i scriptures simply reject it (so I"m rather surprised that Mick implied we accept it in some form): Baha'i teaching is that each human soul begins at conception and lives eternally, passing from this life to the Next, which endures forever. So reincarnation is simply not part of our world-view: we "only go around once" in this life! :-S

Next, as to the individual who stated it's his understanding that there are various Baha'i "schools of thought" is mistaken: the Baha'i Faith is one unified religion of (currently) around seven million believers in literally every country on earth, with no "subgroups" or "sects." And it's important to note that the definition of a Baha'i is "someone who adheres to and follows the Baha'i Covenant (which is laid out i8n the Baha'i scriptures). There are in fact a very few individuals (numbering in the dozens or at most a couple hundred world wide) who claim to be other "sects" of the Baha'i Faith, these individuals do not follow the Covenant in the Baha'i scriptures and are therefore not Baha'is no matter what they call themselves! The Baha'i Faith has always been and remains one, and while there have indeed been attempts to split the Faith throughout its history, these have always failed and died out within one lifetime.

And the individual who claimed to have been "thrown out" of a Baha'i meeting because he asked a question baffles me, too! We WELCOME all questions, and if this individual was indeed asked not to return, then meaning no offense, he was apparently doing something more than he's admitted to here!

And indeed, Individual Investigation of Truth is one of the central Baha'i tenets (along with the oneness of God, humanity, and religion)! This means that no one has the right to tell someone else what to believe. Instead, each person has the obligation to investigate the various religions, find where the truth lies, and follow it. Because of this, Baha'is have an administrative system elected by the members, and there is no hierarchy or clergy at all!

Also, Baha'i parents are forbidden to force their children to become Baha'i. Rather, they have an obligation to see that each child receives instruction in _all_ the great religions (Baha'i schools assist in this). Then, at the age of maturity (15), the child can choose between joining the Baha'i Faith, some other religion, or nothing at all! And the parents must support this decision.

Because of this belief that each person must determine for him- or herself what the truth is, Baha'is are forbidden to proselytize, i.e., to tell someone else what to believe or what religious path to choose! We gladly answer questions and provide information, but what each person does or doesn't do with it is strictly up to him or her.

And as far as our stressing unity, peace, love, harmony, and concord, yes, we certainly do! But this is not because we're some unthinking bunch of starry-eyed dreamers, but because we Baha'is honestly beleive that all this is not only possible, but ultimately inevitable! It's the very Kingdom of God on earth that Christians, among others, have been praying for for millenia!: "Thy Kingdom Come; Thy Will be done!" Our scriptures are very clear about this.

I have more to add, but will begin another post so as not to make this one any longer.

Cheers! :-)

Bruce

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings, all! :-)

OK, herewith some more of my various comments and replies to various folks' postings:

First off, in addition to the bahai.org Web site, interested persons may also want to check out:

bahai-library.org (at this site, click "Baha'i Writings" to see our scriptures)
and
bahaistudy.org (this site also has videos and talking books).

(Again, answers are in no particular order.)

Baha'is definitely accept the existence of miracles, but the Baha'i scriptures also warn that miracles CANNOT be relied upon as "proofs" for any given religion! For this reason, we intentionally avoid presenting them, especially as any sort of "proof."

Heaven and hell exist, but are conditions (spiritual nearness to/separation from God) rather than places. As such, they exist here and now as well as after death; and we are each in one or the other right now as a function of where our heads are at!

No, Baha'is do NOT believe that ANY Divine Messenger--including Baha'u'llah, our Founder--"physically ascended" to Heaven!

It's inaccurate to say that the Baha'i Faith accepts "all" religions. We accept all the great ones as legitimate and of God. But our scriptures do state that there are some that are man-made and hence not legitimate. (Things like satanism are an obvious example.) Also addressing the differences that so trouble many people, the Baha'i scriptures say:

"There can be no doubt whatever that the peoples of the world, of whatever race or religion, derive their inspiration from one heavenly Source, and are the subjects of one God. The difference between the ordinances under which they abide should be attributed to the varying requirements and exigencies of the age in which they were revealed. All of them, except a few which are the outcome of human perversity, were ordained of God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. Arise and, armed with the power of faith, shatter to pieces the gods of your vain imaginings, the sowers of dissension amongst you. Cleave unto that which draweth you together and uniteth you."
(Gleanings, page 217)

Consultation, a Baha'i method of truth-finding, consists of each person stating his or her opinion, and then remaining detached from it instead of "worrying" about whether or not others will accept that view! Decisions are reached eventually by consensus where possible, and by majority vote otherwise. (And indeed, after full consultation an individual often winds up voting aginst the thing he or she first advocated!)

As to Buddha and Buddhism, the Buddhist scriptures clearly imply the existence of a Supreme Being; thus Buddhism as originally revealed is definitely amont the monotheistic religions.

Divine Messengers physical bodies die just like ours (because these bodies ARE like ours). But Messengers, while created, also have a special spiritual station that ordinary humans do not: they are directly invested by the Holy Spirit and are thus both eternal and spiritually One and the same! Thus each one is also the "return" of the previous ones.

Statements in the Baha'i scriptures are indeed official and will stand unaltered for the duration of the Baha'i Era (after which another Divine Messenger will come, revealing yet more scriptures; this time is at least 850 years away). No one except God's Messenger has the right to alter scripture, so for Baha'is, there is really no debate possible about whether such things apply.
And Baha'is have the original manuscripts of every one of our 200 volumes of Baha'i scripture (at the Archives of the Baha'i World Center in Haifa, Israel); indeed, anything for which we do NOT have the original manuscript is not considered Baha'i scripture no matter HOW "inspirational" it may be!

Someone asked about Taoism. In the Baha'i view as I understand it, Taoism is not considered a religion, but a secular philosophy.

As to science and religion, the Baha'i scriptures assert that both are legitimate, each having its own place and its own role. Science addresses the question "how?"; religion addresses "Who?" and "why?" They thus dovetail nicely though they cover largely separate domains.

So for example, God did indeed create the universe, including humanity, but it's up to science to explain exactly HOW this happened and how we evolve, etc.. (BTW, religion, evolves over time, too!)

And the quickest way to get into trouble is to use EITHER science or religion in the role intended for the other, or separated from the other! Science without religion is gross materialism; religion without science is superstition and witch-burning.

And the Baha'i scriptures state that if a religious doctrine disagrees with established (proven) science, then that religion is simply wrong.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Bruce,

thank you for the post.

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

As to Buddha and Buddhism, the Buddhist scriptures clearly imply the existence of a Supreme Being; thus Buddhism as originally revealed is definitely amont the monotheistic religions.

sorry, my friend, but this is simply untrue. in point of fact, the Buddha specifically refutes the idea of a Creator Deity in at least 5 seperate Sutras. the creator deity at this time and place in history was called Ishvara and is specifically refuted. what you Baha'i have in your section on Buddhism, which i've read twice now, is not a description of a Creator deity rather, this is the Dharmadhatu, the unconditioned nature of reality however, it in no way is a Creator Deity.

Someone asked about Taoism. In the Baha'i view as I understand it, Taoism is not considered a religion, but a secular philosophy.

this depends on the point of view that one has. currently extant are two forms of Taoism, the religious aspect (heavenly kings, Jade Emperor etc) and the philosophical Taoism. though we could rightly have a sub group of the philsophical school called Taoist Spiritual Alchemy as that is also currently extant.

i was the one that posted about the various Baha'i groups. here's the information in a more detailed fashion:

The founder of the Bahá'í Faith, Baha'u'llah, selected Abdu'l-Baha to interpret the Baha'i writings after his death. Some members refused to accept the authority of the new leader. After the death of Abdu'l-Baha, the authority passed to Shoghi Effendi, "the infallible Center of the Baha'i faith," the "Center of the Cause," the generally accepted sole interpreter of the Baha'i teachings. Again, some members refused to accept his authority. After his unexpected death in 1957, controversy developed over his successor. One webmaster 4 states that there are now 7 faith groups in the world who claim to be the "true" Bahá'í Faith. Of the six new groups, five were created shortly after the death of Shoghi Effendi, The sixth broke off later. All of the new groups have very small numbers of members compared to Bahá'í World Faith. All have been declared covenant breakers by the Universal House of Justice:

The Bahá'í World Faith is followed by the vast majority of believers. In the United States, it is headed by the National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of the United States. Authority once exercised by Shoghi Effendi is now transferred to the Universal House of Justice in Haifa, Israel.
Bahá'ís Under the Provisions of the Covenant who recognized Mason Remey as theguardian who succeeded Shoghi Effendi. They have organized a series of International Baha'i Councils (IBC).They claim a membership approaching 144,000. Their Baha'i Center is located in Missoula, MT. 5,6
Faith of God, (a.k.a. the House of Mankind and the Universal Palace of Order), who followed Jamshid Ma'ani. They "are no longer active (listed as 'defunct' in Gordon Melton's Encyclopedia of Religions)." 7
The Orthodox Bahá'í Faith," (a.k.a. Mother Bahá'í Council), who follow Joel Marangella.
The Orthodox Baha'i Faith Under the Regency, who follow Rex King.
The Charles Mason Remey Society, who follow Donald Harvey and Francis Spataro.A dissident group organized around The Friends Newsletter.


http://www.religioustolerance.org/bahai.htm

[9Harmony]

Namaste Vajradhara,

In response to the information you provided concerning the differing apparent sects of Baha'i.

The offshoots are the result of individuals seeking personal power. Which is not allowed in the Baha'i Faith. There is no clergy in the Baha'i Faith and no one individual has the right to gain authority over another.

Baha'u'llah in His Will and Testament designated Abdu'l-Baha as the Center of His Covenant, the perfect exemplar of His Faith, the sole interpreter of His Writings. As such Abdu'l-Baha, designated Shoghi Effendi as the Guardian of the Faith and the sole interpreter after His death. Shoghi Effendi labored tirelessly to erect the provisions Baha'u'llah Himself designed to set up the Universal House of Justice. Neither Abdu'l-Baha or Shoghi Effendi sought any personal gain from their positions, their only goal was to safeguard their Faith according to the provisions Baha'u'llah Himself laid out. Shoghi Effendi did not leave a Will and this is where the problems arose. Some individuals sought to gain authority and created schisms among the believers, but the majority following the guidance left behind went on to establish the Universal House of Justice. The Universal House of Justice now oversees the affairs of the Baha'i Faith, not as individuals but as a consultative body. Individual members have no authority by themselves.

As mentioned in your post the sects follow individual (self appointed) leaders. Which in and of itself goes against the teachings of Baha'u'llah and as such nullifies any authority they themselves try to assume.

The Universal House of Justice was foreordained by Baha'u'llah as the future Divine administrative order of His Faith. It is now in existence and is a fulfillment of Baha'u'llah's vision.

I'm sure others can elaborate more eloquently than I. But I thought I should try to correct any misunderstandings as to why there appear to be sects. The Baha'i Faith has built in safeguards to prevent divisions, so there is only one Baha'i Faith. Any that follow individuals by that definition are not Baha'i even though they may attempt to go by that name.

I hope that helps to dispel any misconceptions.

Loving Greetings, Harmony

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Harmony,

thank you for the post and the clarification.

Islam also has a stricture concerning sects.. yet... sects there are. naturally, a "true Muslim" isn't a part of the sects or the creation therein, or so i'm lead to believe... but this quickly leads us to the No True Scotsman fallacy.

at any rate, there do seem to be divisions within the Baha'i faith, even though they are not considered as such by Baha'i themselves. i suppose that this is from an outside perspective, so it is natually skewed in one direction or another.

[Handmaiden07]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

Namaste Harmony,

thank you for the post and the clarification.

Islam also has a stricture concerning sects.. yet... sects there are. naturally, a "true Muslim" isn't a part of the sects or the creation therein, or so i'm lead to believe... but this quickly leads us to the No True Scotsman fallacy.

at any rate, there do seem to be divisions within the Baha'i faith, even though they are not considered as such by Baha'i themselves. i suppose that this is from an outside perspective, so it is natually skewed in one direction or another.

From an "outsider's" point of view, there is really no way to describe the phenomenon called "Baha'i Faith" without alluding to schism. However, I believe that others have accurately stated why Baha'is do not accept the assertion that there is no schism. To be a Baha'i is to embrace fully the Covenant of Baha'u'llah. That is central to the faith, the way believing (in some way) in Jesus as the Son of God is central to Christianity. One cannot believe (merely) that Jesus was a good man, no better nor worse than Moses, and be a Christian. (Or at least, that was my understanding of things!) Similarly, simply believing that Baha'u'llah is a Prophet of God would not make one Baha'i. Being Baha'i means accepting to live within Baha'u'llah's Covenant.

Oh, and by the way... Hi! I'm new!

HM07

[9Harmony]

Originally Posted by Handmaiden07

Oh, and by the way... Hi! I'm new!

HM07

Allah'u'Abha!

Welcome Handmaiden. Glad you could join us.

Loving Greetings, Harmony

[arthra]

Vajradhara,

Good to hear from you again my friend...

I understand your feelings about the Baha'i view of the Buddha... We've been "there and back again" on this topic before.... I expect we'll just have to chalk it up as an area where for now there is a disagreement on this issue...

My past position for brief review is that the Buddha taught "via negativa" about the Absolute and so on... The Baha'i position as to a "Creator God" is not perhaps what some have presented... While we mention God as creating we also believe the material of the universe has been there all along and that the "universe ...has no beginning" and is endless... So maybe we can explore this further as to how close or apart the Buddhist concepts are from the Baha'i.

I'm a little unsure though why you would want to paste the material from Religious Tolerance. com but I have some issues with it even though I think in other respects they do a fair job of presenting most religions fairly well.

To understand this segment best you would need a grasp of our history. I 'm going to add my comments in parentheses so maybe you'll gather how I respond to it:

All have been declared covenant breakers by the Universal House of Justice:

The Bahá'í World Faith

(the official title of our Faith is not "Baha'i World Faith" but simply Baha'i Faith. There was a compilation of Baha'i writings which is no longer in print called "Baha'i World Faith" but even when this book was released the official name was "Baha'i Faith")


is followed by the vast majority of believers. In the United States, it is headed by the National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of the United States. Authority once exercised by Shoghi Effendi is now transferred to the Universal House of Justice in Haifa, Israel.

(The Universal House of Justice was established in 1963 by election of the National Spiritual Assemblies of the Baha'is all over the world)


Bahá'ís Under the Provisions of the Covenant who recognized Mason Remey as theguardian who succeeded Shoghi Effendi.

(Mason Remey was one of twenty seven Hands of the Cause of God who were appointed by Shoghi Effendi. After the Guardian's death, Mason signed legal papers acknowledging that there would be no one to succeed Shoghi Effendi as there was no Will. He later reversed his position on this and claimed himself to be the Guardian's successor however he waited three years after the Guardian's death in 1960 to do this and by then the entire Baha'i world with few exceptions rejected him. The groups that follow stem from Mason's departure from the Faith)


They have organized a series of International Baha'i Councils (IBC).They claim a membership approaching 144,000.

(Believe it or not I have never personally met anyone from this group. I've known of a few on the internet and that's it)


Their Baha'i Center is located in Missoula, MT. 5,6

( There is a group calling itself Baha'is Under the Provisions of the Covenant which was began by a Leland Jensen and located in Missoula Montana... They also have a few websites. Mr. Jenson was a Baha'i pioneer to I think the Seychelles and later joined with King and Marangella and then formed his own group)



Faith of God, (a.k.a. the House of Mankind and the Universal Palace of Order), who followed Jamshid Ma'ani. They "are no longer active (listed as 'defunct' in Gordon Melton's Encyclopedia of Religions)." 7

(This is true...a Baha'i pioneer i think to Indonesia claimed to have revelations that were supposed to be like those of Baha'u'llah, however, it didn't catch on and I know of no one who has continued this.)

The Orthodox Bahá'í Faith," (a.k.a. Mother Bahá'í Council), who follow Joel Marangella.

( This group claims to be descended from Mason Remey.... and they have a Center in Roswell, New Mexico. You can see some of their material on the internet. The groups after this are also splits or splinters from Mason's followers. Joel Marangella broke with the Faith shortly after Mason did.)

The Orthodox Baha'i Faith Under the Regency, who follow Rex King.

(The King group I believe has a ranch in Nevada and has attempted to revitalize itself.... Rex King had some connection as i recall with Hollywood. But his family has continued to an extent his original ideas)

The Charles Mason Remey Society, who follow Donald Harvey and Francis Spataro.A dissident group organized around The Friends Newsletter.

(The Charles Mason Remey Soc. and the Friends Newsletter are no longer active.)

_____________________________

In summary Vaj, the groups you've pasted are mostly splinters from the earlier defection of Mason Remey... whether or not they will survive over time no one can say but none of them have succeeded in convincing a large group of Bahais to leave their Faith.

To understand what a "Covenant Breaker" is from our view you'd need to learn a little more about our Faith.... but essentially it means someone who goes out of their way to attack the central authority of our Faith and seeks to cause divisions among the believers.

Let me know if you'd like more information!

- Art

[I, Brian]

Interesting all, especially the information provided and expounded on the splinter groups stemming from Mason Remey. Pretty obvious where the claimed "144,000" membership comes from, though, which is perhaps indicative of the outlook there (though this is a statement, not judgement ). It'll be interesting to see how long Baha'i in general can hold itself together as is current.

And welcome to CR, Handmaiden007.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste art,


thank you for the post.

i posted the information from that site since it clearly explained my reasoning behind asking my qeustion concerning sub groups of the Baha'i tradition. i could have cut and pasted without attribution, however, i find that tends to convolute the issue more than clarify it... since you could have rightly refuted anything that i had posted.

using an external source, even though it may not be agreed upon, at least gives us a common frame of reference to begin our dialog, don't you agree?

[arthra]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

Namaste art,


thank you for the post.

i posted the information from that site since it clearly explained my reasoning behind asking my qeustion concerning sub groups of the Baha'i tradition. i could have cut and pasted without attribution, however, i find that tends to convolute the issue more than clarify it... since you could have rightly refuted anything that i had posted.

using an external source, even though it may not be agreed upon, at least gives us a common frame of reference to begin our dialog, don't you agree?

Vajra,

Frankly, I was already pretty familiar with the content of the religioustolerance.org site so it wouldn't have mattered to me whether you indicated the source or not, but i think it is also important to post sources of attribution as much as possible... I hope i do this regularly and whenever possible so anyone can see where i get things from....

I'm not as concerned about refuting you Vajra, please don't feel that way. If we can just explore a topic and share our views in a sincere friendly way I think that will be best!

- Art

[Vajradhara]

Namaste art,


what i meant to indicate, though not very well, was that by posting information that was unattributed, it is quite easy to assert that the information i was relating was not correct or accurate.. and i would have no recourse to information to explain why i was saying what i was saying.

on this subject, Baha'i, i stand to be corrected by many posters on this site... that's not all that big of a deal for me perhaps.. i'm unlike some others.. but i really don't have a problem honestly exploring other traditions as i'm quite secure in my own

i do think, however, that folks that aren't secure in their own tradition tend to have a difficult time honestly exploring other traditions.

it's my belief that we are and have been quite geneial on this subject.. which, as you may know, can be quite volitile.. depending on whom you are speaking with.

[BruceDLimber]

B>Interesting all, especially the information provided and expounded on the splinter groups stemming from Mason Remey. Pretty obvious where the claimed "144,000" membership comes from, though, which is perhaps indicative of the outlook there (though this is a statement, not judgement ). It'll be interesting to see how long Baha'i in general can hold itself together as is current.

I agree the "144,000" number is a real knee-slapper! :-) This is a number greater than (though not much greater than) the entire number of BAHA'IS in the US! Clearly it's an attempt to cash in of the Revelation of Saint John!

This is all the more so since these covenant-breaker groups typically have only a few dozen members each, and APPEAR larger only because a few individuals are making lots of noise on the Web. This in contrast with the seven million Baha'is in the world (we're in literally every country on earth).

Just the facts! :-)

Bruce

[arthra]

Welcome to the Forum Bruce and Allah'u'Abha!

Good to hear from you... how's the Fast going for you these days?

I've been trying to read more prayers and meditate more...

- Art