Attacks on islam by Christian Leaders

[Saltmeister]

Rodger Tutt, welcome to CR.

Here's what I'm thinking.

People can often allow themselves to be manipulated by ideas of going to hell. I am led to think that the point is not whether an "eternal hell" exists, or whether people spend part of their eternal lives in hell and are "liberated" for some reason. Why should we assume anything of the afterlife? Why not just hope for the best, go out seeking the best of things, considering all the things that have been presented to us, ie. religion?

In life there are lots of questions. I doubt whether any of us can answer them all. I wouldn't be surprised if there were ten times more questions than we could hope to answer in our lifetime. But for a lot of things there is really no answer, because it's an open question that beckons us, not to answer it, but to appreciate it for what it means. The answer could be a yes or no. We must appreciate the possibility of both the yes and the no being true, though obviously it can't be a yes and no at the same time.

It's not a question of whether dualities and binary opposites exist. It is perhaps not possible to know one way or the other. But whether or not we can answer that question, it's important to appreciate both possibilities. Does one have to know for certain, who, what, when and where God is, why He is the way He is and how it affects us? Is that possible? Can we prove one theory and disprove another? Do we need to? If we can't, what does that mean? Are we lost?

I think, therefore, that the most important thing one must do if one is to be accepted by God is to appreciate what it all means. Don't just limit yourself to exploring one religion, but expose yourself to the whole spectrum (well, only if you have that much time to start with). The more religions you know, the more you will come to appreciate where you are in relation to God. The more you appreciate Him, the closer you get to Him.

Ok, explore religions, but my advice is this. Don't spread yourself too thinly. Get deep into a religion and don't stop getting deeper. You want to get to know that religion as well as you possibly can. But don't just read books. Think for yourself. Explore the religion "outside the box" so that you can understand what it means "inside the box." You can't know what a religion means if you don't know what it does not mean.

So you must now be guessing that "failure to appreciate" is what keeps us apart from God. Moreover, would this also mean that God will shut us out of His realm forever? But here's the thing. Some of us don't really care about God. We're in search of our own identity, but not concerned about God or the other people that belong to Him. But some of us do care about God, we're in search of our own identity, but we reconcile that with where we fit in with our concept of God. People like that could come from a whole range of different religions. I guess we could appreciate the idea that people stayed in hell forever, or appreciate the alternative possibility that it didn't. It sounds awfully harsh if people ended up in hell forever, though it also sounds indecisive of God to have a "temporary abode" to give people time to think about their destiny.

But all this leads to one thing -- it sounds a lot like a relationship. You either belong to God or you don't. Ironically, you can turn up when the party has already started. Of course, people mucking around in a party probably couldn't care less when you turned up, or even that you turn up at all. But God might care. To Him it's personal because He knows your thoughts. It must torment Him a lot to know our thoughts.

Is hell eternal? Should it be?

The way I see it, it's best not to answer the question at all. If you go with the thinking that hell is eternal, you end up thinking that God is cruel and harsh. If you think that God doesn't mind as long as you're happy, then you're assuming God doesn't take it that personally. Either way, you allow yourself to be manipulated by the idea that you either get one chance to connect with God (this life) or that He allows you to come to the party late. Either way, you assume God doesn't take it personally.

It takes two people to make a relationship. That's what happens between a man and woman. If you say God sends people to hell forever, there is certainly a chance that some of the people God created won't be appreciated for who they are and don't get the chance to be recognised by God as His own. But if you say that you can make up your mind later, then you're saying God doesn't mind whether or not you appreciate Him now, as long as you do it eventually.

But it might go both ways. God doesn't like manipulations. He wants real people. Real souls.

Debates about hell being eternal or not put emphasis on making rules about how hell works. But I disagree. It should be about appreciation of people and also of God. God would want to be appreciated as much as we do. God Himself goes to hell when He sends people to hell. Hell is a condition where people aren't appreciated for what they are -- a place that reflects dysfunctional relationships. Heaven is the place of appreciation. From the point of view of the people in "hell," it is not they who are in hell, but God who is in hell, because God failed to appreciate them for who they were. It's not just people who go to hell. God has to go to hell too. God is in hell for the people who are in hell. Hell is a kind of "reality" if you follow my thinking. It's more of a property of one's relationship with God, rather than just the person. There is a part of God that will go to hell and there is a part of God that will go to heaven. It's about where the heart is.

But once again -- is hell eternal? Who really knows? Why not just appreciate the possibilities, rather than choosing a particular answer? Hell is personal, so let's not start making it impersonal by manipulating ourselves either way.

Let's stop writing the rules for hell. Let's start being real people. Real souls.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

I'm tempted to close this thread, but I won;t yet as I'd like to see something useful come out of this first.

as salaam aleykum I Brian

Sorry I know this is ancient history (well a really old post anyway) but I just wanted to express my disappointment at your comment above. With all due respect, this was the first thread I have read where a Muslims and Christian were having an in depth, constructive, non confrontational discussion and you threaten to close it down. Barriers were being broken down, misconceptions explained and people of different faiths coming together to engage in real discussion. Isn't that why it is called an interfaith forum? Perhaps suggesting a change to the thread name would have been better? Just my 10c worth if you don't mind.

Salaam

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

as salaam aleykum I Brian

Sorry I know this is ancient history (well a really old post anyway) but I just wanted to express my disappointment at your comment above. With all due respect, this was the first thread I have read where a Muslims and Christian were having an in depth, constructive, non confrontational discussion and you threaten to close it down. Barriers were being broken down, misconceptions explained and people of different faiths coming together to engage in real discussion. Isn't that why it is called an interfaith forum? Perhaps suggesting a change to the thread name would have been better? Just my 10c worth if you don't mind.

Salaam

At the time, the rules were a bit more conservative. And it is an older thread.
I wouldn't worry too much now about it being closed.

v/r

Joshua

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

as salaam aleykum I Brian

Sorry I know this is ancient history (well a really old post anyway) but I just wanted to express my disappointment at your comment above. With all due respect, this was the first thread I have read where a Muslims and Christian were having an in depth, constructive, non confrontational discussion and you threaten to close it down. Barriers were being broken down, misconceptions explained and people of different faiths coming together to engage in real discussion. Isn't that why it is called an interfaith forum? Perhaps suggesting a change to the thread name would have been better? Just my 10c worth if you don't mind.

Salaam

Indeed, as Quahom points out, the forum has undergone a lot of changes, not least in attitude to posting. It used to be the case that we tried a policy of utter civility hence the original comment, but now we're trying to be as liberal and as tolerant with forum topics/postings as possible.

[zeras]

Asalaamulikum,

very nice post,
I would like to add somethings,
first, the truth is people of Judaism, Christianity or Islam,
anyone that actually goes around doing these horrible acts,
are not following their faith. I mean did God ever says to kill
the people?? No! did God ever say to force conversion? No!
so, if we realize this, we can clearly see, these are not true Christians.
Same goes for the Zionist Israelis or any extreme Muslims. you see
the word fundamentalists, comes form the word fundamental.
Now, I would like to say to anyone, of their faith, If you are not following the
fundamentals, than what are you learning??? come on tell me the truth! fundamentals meaning the basic, for example in Islam, to read & recite the Qu'ran, to pray 5 times a day, to bow down & worship one god and nothing else. So next time, you hear on the media, these are Christian, Jewish or Muslim or anything.. etc. fundamentalist have done violent things or are saying things by speech or action, it is clear that they are not fundamentalist, no so what are they?? easy they are really Kaffirs or Kaffara,
unbeliever or those who say they believe, but are doing the opposite and are hiding the truth.

Salaamulikum

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Indeed, as Quahom points out, the forum has undergone a lot of changes, not least in attitude to posting. It used to be the case that we tried a policy of utter civility hence the original comment, but now we're trying to be as liberal and as tolerant with forum topics/postings as possible.

Thankyou I Brian & Quahom for your responses, I am happy to hear that things have changed. I was aware I was dragging up an old issue and I did think after I posted that it wasn't really my business but I did just wanted to express my desire for allowing constructive discussion, whilst still appreciating your time and effort at monitoring posts and stopping abuses. Hope you didn't think I was being rude.

Salaam

[Alex P]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

In fact, you might be surprised to know that the basic understanding of Islam has risen in the United States by a good 25%, over the past 4 years. That is significant. Though you might see such "rhetoric" from some, disguised as religious righteousness, it isn't righteous at all. Franklin Graham for example, is definitely not his father. And Pat Robertson, has agendas all his own.

Q

Fatest growing religion right now.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Alex P

Fatest growing religion right now.

Fastest conversion rate, perhaps. However the losses to Islam because of the disillusionment caused by radical behavior of certain professed fundementalists, around the world, is also as rapid, which leads the numbers holding to Islam about the same.

[greymare]

who does this "poll" to suggest the fastest conversion rate and all that??

[Alex P]

Originally Posted by greymare

who does this "poll" to suggest the fastest conversion rate and all that??

Me, that would be me... Why, you got a complaint?? lol.... sociologists and all that lot....

Also all religions keep track of their numbers... But, religions are like men... (possible cause most are run by men.) They like to make "things" bigger..... Makes them look right....

Not saying that is entirely the case here, but I have a statement that says, "The Baha'i [off shoot from Islam, broke away from the Shi-te Muslims in 1844.] Claim to have over 5,000,000 world wide members... Although the actual adult enrollment in the faith is slightly more than 2,300,000." so that is less than 50% of what the religion itself claims... I tend to go with sociologists and goverment records rather than the religions. Then again, it is quite a big thing to keep track of lol. Doubt that helped, but hope it did.