Attacks on islam by Christian Leaders

[Chalice]

You know, call me crazy, but I agree with you, and I think that the Muslim's who like and respect Christians and Jews (and others) need an "Evangelistic" sort of TV show that explains this stuff to the general public, I know I would tune in to a "preacher" type person who does a Koranic study and explains what the verses mean and how they relate to the Jewish and Christian Scriptures, and how it is all peacefull, and how the verses that "appear" attacking are not understood and what they really mean and so forth. I think someone should have this type of TV show and an "American Standard Version" of the Koran to offer for free to everyone so we can all be on the "same" page. I did notice something in the Koran, I can not remember where, but one section on Jesus being the Messiah speaks of his death and resurrection, but it's not obvious, but it is there, and when I read that I felt like, hey, Muslims "can" believe in the death and resurrection of Christ; unfortunately, another verse teaches the opposite, which makes the Koran confusing. I contend that the verse that agrees with Christianity (that the death and resurrection were real) are the ones that the Prophet Muhammed intended, and maybe some early scribe put in the disagreeing verse. Because it is not logical for Muhammed to go against what earlier religions taught on this topic, especially if the same God revealed it to two other faiths that the crucifixion, and resurrection are absolutely going to happen (Psalm 92, Isaiah 53, Zechariah 3). I think that one verse section that says Christ was not crucified/resurrected was added, and that's what is throwing everyone off. I realize that the Koran functions as an etiquette book as well, telling followers what "correct" behavior is, and what is not. I have no problem with that at all, unless it is to difficult. For example, I live in the deep (and hot/muggy) south, and those long clothes the women wear? I could only do that if I was a corpse - way to hot for me. I see these sweet Muslim women sitting by the pool side in our 97 degree heat and 150% humidity with their head all bound up in fabric, with a long sleeved shirt on that is buttoned up to the neck and "over" the head peace that is tucked into the shirt, long pants, socks and shoes on. That woman should be crowned a saint just for having to get dressed! The ones who wear the gowns, they have got to be just as hot. I don't know what the other rules are, but if they are as uncomfortable as that, I doubt many people will convert to Islam, just based on comfort level.

I just think that public, open communication would be great. I know that TBN displays the most conservative and "wacko" christians out there, but they get their message out and good explanations, most of the time. Maybe the Muslim community owes the American people this type of television, so we all know what is going on...That would be a start.

I am planning to look at "Faithful Servant's" links about these wacky evangelists - they are just to overboard and demanding for me. They make it known that we are "required" to live by their standards, not God's, and they get wackier as time goes on. Maybe that is the only way they can increase their viewership...All tv has to become more and more sensational.

[thipps]

h|,
i have to jump in here.

Originally Posted by Chalice

You know, call me crazy, but I agree with you, and I think that the Muslim's who like and respect Christians and Jews (and others) need an "Evangelistic" sort of TV show that explains this stuff to the general public, I know I would tune in to a "preacher" type person who does a Koranic study and explains what the verses mean and how they relate to the Jewish and Christian Scriptures, and how it is all peacefull, and how the verses that "appear" attacking are not understood and what they really mean and so forth. I think someone should have this type of TV show and an "American Standard Version" of the Koran to offer for free to everyone so we can all be on the "same" page.

In saudi arabia, we get the GOD channel. Yes, stuff like this is actually legally allowed here. I watch it sometimes. I have mixed feelings about it. If they'd stick to Christianity and/or judaism, it would be fine (which they do mostly) but saying lies about Islam,... well, i really dont need to say the obvious.
Regarding a good enligsh translation, the one by Hilali and Khan is better than the other ones i.e. Pickthall, Shakir and Yusuf Ali as its in modern english (no thou or thee in it)

Originally Posted by Chalice

I did notice something in the Koran, I can not remember where, but one section on Jesus being the Messiah speaks of his death and resurrection, but it's not obvious, but it is there, and when I read that I felt like, hey, Muslims "can" believe in the death and resurrection of Christ; unfortunately, another verse teaches the opposite, which makes the Koran confusing. I contend that the verse that agrees with Christianity (that the death and resurrection were real) are the ones that the Prophet Muhammed intended, and maybe some early scribe put in the disagreeing verse. Because it is not logical for Muhammed to go against what earlier religions taught on this topic, especially if the same God revealed it to two other faiths that the crucifixion, and resurrection are absolutely going to happen (Psalm 92, Isaiah 53, Zechariah 3). I think that one verse section that says Christ was not crucified/resurrected was added, and that's what is throwing everyone off.

Your statements are based on your own interpretations of the OT cause Jews disagree with Christians on mostly everything regarding Jesus(pbuh) (More than Christians and Muslims). So, there is no precedence for you to state that God revealed it two other faiths. One could, in light of this, turn the tables on you using precedence as an argument for proof. By the way, i read Zechariah 3 just to see what you wanted to say, I didnt see a crucifixion/resurrection mentioned nor did Matthew Henry's Commentary say anything about it. What I have said uptil now, is something for you to think about, not something to reply to. You are new here, so you dont know the rules that well regarding faith-specific boards.
That having said, what you have claimed regarding your readings of the Quran and then subsequently attacking it by saying that text was added into it, is unacceptable on the Islam board especially in light of the fact that you have provided nothing but ur faulty memory for reference. Please do not repeat such things on the Islam board. If you finally do remember the verse(s), by all means, you can ask for clarification. But if you feel that you must continue your current train of thought, then please use the Comparative Studies section of the forum.

I realize that the Koran functions as an etiquette book as well, telling followers what "correct" behavior is, and what is not. I have no problem with that at all, unless it is to difficult.

we are taught that this life is a test for the hereafter. So, difficulties are definitely going to arise. One will often be faced with making the choice betweent what is right and what is easy.

That woman should be crowned a saint just for having to get dressed! The ones who wear the gowns, they have got to be just as hot. I don't know what the other rules are, but if they are as uncomfortable as that, I doubt many people will convert to Islam, just based on comfort level.

we'll leave the rewarding to God. And considering that Islam is fastest growing religion, i'd say people have bigger issues in mind.

Maybe the Muslim community owes the American people this type of television, so we all know what is going on...That would be a start.

Agreed. i dont know if they are actually doing such a thing or not in the US. Considering your thougts, they probably arent.
Hope this clears up a few things.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by thipps

h|,

Agreed. i dont know if they are actually doing such a thing or not in the US. Considering your thougts, they probably arent.
Hope this clears up a few things.

Local cable. Places that have rather large populations of Arab-Americans, like Green Belt, OH, Dearborn/Detroit/Southfield, MI. Well established lobbying groups for the local governments and general population awareness, too.

v/r

Q

[kittycat]

The Truth,hello friend, anyone that attacks another religion is ignorant.We should all respect each other and their beliefs................

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by kittycat

The Truth,hello friend, anyone that attacks another religion is ignorant.We should all respect each other and their beliefs................

I think there are exceptions to the rule. Davidian cult, comes to mind...

[AbdAlRahman]

Originally Posted by Chalice

I have several copies of the koran, all given to me by good muslim people who purchased them for me at their mosques - therefore I believe them to be reliable texts that represent the Korah in english.

I am a Christian. I sat down to read my Koran. It surprised me that some texts accuse Christians and Jews of talking behind the backs of Muslems about how bad their are, and then speaking to their faces nicely. I was also surprised that the Koran accuses jews and christians of having an alterior motive to convert muslims to their own faiths, as if this were a surprise - christianity and ancient judaism were both "evangelical" faiths since before Islam existed - the goal of monotheism is to get others to "join up" and know the One God in the "correct" way according to them.

I was also offended that the koran refers to jews and christians as "people of the book", and claims that we can not follow God's prophets correctly enough, which is why God is angry with us, and had to send another prophet to correct everything. There are portions of the koran that state that if the knowledge of the koran is rejected by jews and christians, eventually a muslim must realize that they will never convert anyway, and since their soul is lost, they have no value as people and it is ok to destroy them. The koran also has portions on "jihad" and I am sorry to tell you this, but in my koran, I understand the jihad text to be instruction on war attacks against those who do not accept Islam as their religion.

Of course, to be fair, I also sat down and read the old testament - it instructs the jews to march into pagan lands, take their land in the name of the Jewish God and destroy everything, even the goods. So maybe ancient religions just took over each other's land by war in the name of their deities. Christianity never teaches this in the New Testament - the war is inside each person, and the battle is between Satan and God over your soul. You only can choose who you want to be with. It is not political or public, it is personal, and private.

I found my english version of the koran gramatically clumsy, and I am not saying this to be mean. I have a degree in English/Brittish lit, and it does not read smoothly, because the translators, more than likely do not own English as their first language and are doing the best they can with a foreign language. When I read the koran, I want to just sit down to the computer and make the text more smooth and gracefull. I also wish I could take out the parts that teach muslims that it is ok to kill me because I am not muslim.

I have many muslim friends and I love them very much. I am "ok" that they are not Christians as I am. I wish that the koran would reflect this type of love toward me, because most of my muslim friends do - it is natural to live and let live, and to love others.

I am personally very afraid of what happened in London a few weeks back, with a tape of AlQeda coming on CNN and saying that there are more plans to blow up America and London. I hope that the muslim world never experiences western "cell" groups that no one can find, who enter their society as "friends", and then blow up innocent housewives who cart their many crying children to the grocery store for milk and diapers, or people who go to work so their children can have birthday gifts, or the mortgage can be paid.

I know the muslim people are good of heart - I only know "good" muslim people, and I love them. I would like to know if there are any muslims out there who would like to translate an "American" version of the Koran (as we have an "American Standard version " of the Bible - it would read smoothly and beautifully, and it would be much more gentle with the passages that "appear" to teach that ending lives of non-muslims is "ok". This would help alot and spread the peace that Islam is supposed to be.

The story of Abraham and his 2 wives, sarah and hagar teach that both families, Jews/Christians and Muslims should dwell in peace inside Abraham's tent, for God tells Hagar to go back to Abraham's tent with Ishmael and dwell there in peace. She can not because Sarah will not allow it, which is unfortunate. But I want to dwell in peace with the muslim world, and do not believe you are in exile from the Abrahamic family. Please let us live in peace and love. I do not know what christian leaders say, and I dont know what really happens with muslim leaders - but I do know what the koran teaches and says, and I do know that NY and London have been blown up. That is enough for me. Forget the leaders. we need a grass roots effort for peace, and we need to re-teach everyone love for one another, and re-translating the koran so that at least in English speaking countries, the Koran would be understood as a book that teaches muslims to love and tolerate non-muslims.

Chrsitianity isint all about pace too

Jesus didnt come with peace but with a sword , or something like that , what are you thoughts of the predictions and scientific evidense that theQu'Ran provide?

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by AbdAlRahman

Chrsitianity isint all about pace too

Jesus didnt come with peace but with a sword , or something like that , what are you thoughts of the predictions and scientific evidense that theQu'Ran provide?

Jesus Christ is all about peace, love, and truth for everyone based on the passages below, mostly from John the Baptist. Too bad we cant all love each other instead of attacking each other.


For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.


Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.


The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen

[Silverbackman]

Originally Posted by Chalice

I have several copies of the koran, all given to me by good muslim people who purchased them for me at their mosques - therefore I believe them to be reliable texts that represent the Korah in english.

I am a Christian. I sat down to read my Koran. It surprised me that some texts accuse Christians and Jews of talking behind the backs of Muslems about how bad their are, and then speaking to their faces nicely. I was also surprised that the Koran accuses jews and christians of having an alterior motive to convert muslims to their own faiths, as if this were a surprise - christianity and ancient judaism were both "evangelical" faiths since before Islam existed - the goal of monotheism is to get others to "join up" and know the One God in the "correct" way according to them.

I was also offended that the koran refers to jews and christians as "people of the book", and claims that we can not follow God's prophets correctly enough, which is why God is angry with us, and had to send another prophet to correct everything. There are portions of the koran that state that if the knowledge of the koran is rejected by jews and christians, eventually a muslim must realize that they will never convert anyway, and since their soul is lost, they have no value as people and it is ok to destroy them. The koran also has portions on "jihad" and I am sorry to tell you this, but in my koran, I understand the jihad text to be instruction on war attacks against those who do not accept Islam as their religion.

Of course, to be fair, I also sat down and read the old testament - it instructs the jews to march into pagan lands, take their land in the name of the Jewish God and destroy everything, even the goods. So maybe ancient religions just took over each other's land by war in the name of their deities. Christianity never teaches this in the New Testament - the war is inside each person, and the battle is between Satan and God over your soul. You only can choose who you want to be with. It is not political or public, it is personal, and private.

I found my english version of the koran gramatically clumsy, and I am not saying this to be mean. I have a degree in English/Brittish lit, and it does not read smoothly, because the translators, more than likely do not own English as their first language and are doing the best they can with a foreign language. When I read the koran, I want to just sit down to the computer and make the text more smooth and gracefull. I also wish I could take out the parts that teach muslims that it is ok to kill me because I am not muslim.

I have many muslim friends and I love them very much. I am "ok" that they are not Christians as I am. I wish that the koran would reflect this type of love toward me, because most of my muslim friends do - it is natural to live and let live, and to love others.

I am personally very afraid of what happened in London a few weeks back, with a tape of AlQeda coming on CNN and saying that there are more plans to blow up America and London. I hope that the muslim world never experiences western "cell" groups that no one can find, who enter their society as "friends", and then blow up innocent housewives who cart their many crying children to the grocery store for milk and diapers, or people who go to work so their children can have birthday gifts, or the mortgage can be paid.

I know the muslim people are good of heart - I only know "good" muslim people, and I love them. I would like to know if there are any muslims out there who would like to translate an "American" version of the Koran (as we have an "American Standard version " of the Bible - it would read smoothly and beautifully, and it would be much more gentle with the passages that "appear" to teach that ending lives of non-muslims is "ok". This would help alot and spread the peace that Islam is supposed to be.

The story of Abraham and his 2 wives, sarah and hagar teach that both families, Jews/Christians and Muslims should dwell in peace inside Abraham's tent, for God tells Hagar to go back to Abraham's tent with Ishmael and dwell there in peace. She can not because Sarah will not allow it, which is unfortunate. But I want to dwell in peace with the muslim world, and do not believe you are in exile from the Abrahamic family. Please let us live in peace and love. I do not know what christian leaders say, and I dont know what really happens with muslim leaders - but I do know what the koran teaches and says, and I do know that NY and London have been blown up. That is enough for me. Forget the leaders. we need a grass roots effort for peace, and we need to re-teach everyone love for one another, and re-translating the koran so that at least in English speaking countries, the Koran would be understood as a book that teaches muslims to love and tolerate non-muslims.

Hello Chalice,

Many liberals and conservatives alike are bashing Christianity and Islam. The truth is even though Christians like this bash Islam, Islams do the same thing in the middle east. Muslims by the way burn Bible in the East and do horrible things to churches and christians. In my opinion these are just as worse, if not even worse to what christians do to muslims. Yet many liberals ignore these horrible acts comited by muslims to christians just because they are on the other side. Don't get me wrong, I am not accusing you if being such a person but I just want to keep things balanced and correct, both christians and muslims do horrible things to each other. They have been doing these stuff for over a thousand years to each other.

Then we have Christians, who bash the religion of islam. The truth is judeo-christianity teaches the same things as islam. In Leviticus it says you must put anyone who does not believe in the same God to death, and to kill adulters and homosexuals. Yet these christians don't follow these concepts in their own religion and dismiss these acts.

Don't get me wrong, I do think both christians and muslims should reject the various verses of violence in their religious books. But for a Christians to say that a Muslim is a more violent person is illogical because christianity teaches the same thing.

[I, Brian]

Just to let you know I've moved this thread to the Monotheism board.

I don't see how this thread benefits the Islam board, or even the Christianity board, hence the move to a possibly a more neutral venue to discuss the issues raised

[samk313]

On reading these articles of the attacks by the Christian Leaders towards the Islamic Religion is unacceptable,it seems that they have little or no knowledge of the Muslim religion,Islam is a religion of Monotheism,the belief of One God (ALLAH,this name of God is the true name of God which is said by the Arab Christians and said by Prophet Jesus(may peace be upon him) in the ARAMIAC language),so how can Frankiln Graham say the God of Islam is not the same God,Islam so strongly condemns violence towards innocent people,if muslims are committing such attacks they are not obviously following religion according to there beliefs.
The Islamic belief is of One God,belief in all the Prophets,especially the belief on the four main Prophets whom God sent down His Divine message Prophet Moses(Torah),Prophet David (Psalms),Prophet Jesus(Bible),and Prophet Muhammed(the Quran),Belief on the Angels especially the four main Archangels,Gabriel(Jibrael in arabic),Michael(Mikael),Izrael,Raphael(Izraphael)a nd the Day of Judgement.
Franklin Graham has also commented about the treatment of women, he should note that pre-Islamic times when a new born baby girl was born she would be buried alive,the Holy Prophet Muhammed(may peace be upon him) stopped this barbaric act which was the norm before Islam,he would cry profusely when any of these barbaric stories were narrated to him.
And Franklin Graham is refering to women being forced to wear the veil,he should think again about one of the women pious woman in religion the Virgin Mary(Mariam in arabic),she has set an example to all women regardless of faith,in how to preserve modesty,there is simply no debate about this.
It is so strange to note that the Christian faith are unaware that Muslims believe in Prophet Jesus Christ(may peace be upon him)and they believe in his return, they would need to do more research on the Islamic religion to realise that it is the truth and the Holy QURAN has not been meddled with by human hands unlike the Bible and the Torah which has so many inconsistancies.
The attack by Benny Hinn is absolutely absurd, to say Muslims are evil and devils,and that God is on our side,i would really like to ask what has done so righteous that God is on his side.The masses of 'so called Christians' dont or haven't followed the ways of Prophet Jesus Christ(may peace be upon him),a) Christian men do not circumcise,b)Jesus Christ(may peace be upon him) did not eat pork,c)He did not drink intoxicant(alcohol),d)sex before marriage is not allowed,d)homosexuality is not allowed,e) women to dress modestly( to follow the modesty of the Virgin Mary),the list could be endless.The lawlessness of the masses across the western world should be considered,no one is following the way of Prophet Jesus christ(may peace be upon him). and it is very wrong to attack muslims because of foreign policies set out by the west, the religion of Islam should not be attacked when it is followed by millions of people for the past 1400 years and is still the fastest growing religion in the world.

[Quahom1]

Hello Samk, and welcome to CR.

They don't understand what they are talking about, nor do they represent mainstream Christianity (by a long shot). And you make a point when you say that those committing atrocities in the name of Islam are not following the faith, or the belief's requirements. Not all Christians are very Christianly either.

Christians do understand that in Islam, Jesus is a prophet, however in Christianity He is also God, and the Savior. Therein lies the difference. Benny Hinn is an idiot.

In aramaic, Jesus called God the Father, Abba, not Allah.

I do not see how you can consider the Bible or the Torah to be inconsistent, when they both offer Man hope. There is nothing inconsistent about that.

Miriam (Mary), was never "veiled". Her head was covered (as was the custom of the time). The "veiling" of women is also a pre-Islamic, and Arabic custom. Christian women are encouraged to remain modest in their dress, and to have their head covered when praying or prophesying, but not to have their face veiled. So there is obviously debate about it.

Christian men are not required to be circumsized, though a great majority are. Peter was told that "pork" can be eaten, and that what goes into the body is not the issue for it leaves the body, but what comes from the heart and out of the mouth is what is unclean.

Jesus not only drank alcohol (he was called a glutton and a drunkard by His enemies), but He made the best wine in the world at a wedding in Cana.

Jesus re-emphasised that fornication of any kind was wrong and unhealthy, but that sex in the marriage was perfect and bonding, and a gift between the two in union. He did not attack nor judge fornicators, ever. He did go after the self righteous however, with zeal.

The policies of the West were negotiated with the leaders of the Middle East; you can't blame the West for that. One has to look at the leaders of the Middle East for the wrongs done to the people.

And it was members from the Middle East that started this "holy war" against the West, without regard for the price the people of the Middle East would end up paying (as well as the rest of the world).

I believe you also need to read up on your Abrahamic faiths, as there are apparent gaps in the knowledge you have.

As I stated before, these so called "Christian Leaders", are not speaking for the majority, nor does the majority listen to them. We make our own decisions and choices.

I hope this has been enlightening for you.

v/r

Q

[MattWolf]

I think Muslim people will respect Christianity more if they see fewer pieces of American-made military hardware pointed at them and their children. Our subsidy of cooperative dictatorships is also deplorable.

What does this have to do with the topic? Well, the US Government's immoral foreign policy against muslim nations is carried out more easily with the support of Christian Crusaders. Likewise, the Christian Crusaders' arguments are reinforced by our foreign policy.

If either of these two would stop participating in the lie, we would see progress. But until then, the majority of America will not scrutinize our policies enough to bring change. And the fingerpointing and holier-than-thou dynamic will continue.

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

http://www.ondoctrine.com/10tbn.htm

http://www.raptureready.com/rr-heresy.html

both of these links are pages of heretical comments made by these very visible people. Like I said.. pretty scary stuff.

How are any of those comments "scary"? It looks like they are just silly doctrinal positions you don't agree with. I certainly hope you didn't intend to endorse the anti-Catholic stance of the second site you linked. Take a look at what they have to say about Jack Van Impe and the "end times Harlot" (gag).

This "heresy hunting," ironically, is a big part of what people of non-Evangelical faiths find so distrubing about the direction so much of mainstream Christianity is headed.

[Faithfulservant]

hmm anyone that says they will curse someone in the name of God for whatever action they commit.. proves themself scary to me.

I did not say.. oh look at what van impe said.. hes scary..

If you are going to find issue with something I said.. take into consideration that in this case its just a view and not a theology.

Hmm Hinn claiming to be a mini messiah.. or that he can raise the dead are things I take issue with.

I especially take issue with how they fleece money from people.. but if thats your thing then by all means support it.

I believe we are held accountable with how we promote and represent Christ and I believe its perfectly fine to hunt the heretics so that the Church does not fall by the wayside or be abused by greed.

but like I said if this is what you support then have at it.. I find it mostly disturbing.

[Abogado del Diablo]

Did I say I support their ministries?

NO. I did not.

And I don't support Hinn or any other TV preacher.

However, these "heresy hunters" calling the Catholic Church the Whore of Babylon is no less troubling than the statements they've compiled about the TV preachers and much more troubling than most of those statements.