Atlantis: did it exist?

[I, Brian]

There has been speculation for centuries that the reference in Plato was to a real - and extrmeely advanced culture - that somehow disappeared from the map, the historical record, and human searches for it since.

I have to say that I find the whole argument that Atlantis was ever a physical place to be more something of an act of faith - a lot of speculation with nothing real behind it. Of course, references to Atlantis are also strong in Mysticism, which - in my opinion - gives it an equally questionable name. Namely, a recommendation that such mystics are more interested in marketing to people, than displaying any real spiritual truths.

But I stand to be corrected.

Was Atlantis a real place, or is it a metaphor - or is it simply a focus of a morality tale, too long interpreted literally?

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Brian!

Thank you, I think, for this extra thread.

I had hoped to skirt the issue of Atlantis as such, for the reasons you mention. Even though it is mentioned by Plato, at least some scholars imply that he "doctored" his presentation for various reasons, not least politics and morality. The suggestion is that Plato fabricated a myth for his own purposes, or at least that is my personal impression of the summation.

http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~idixonmc/atlantis.html

This link is one I read this morning, and it draws from not only Plato, but others such as Francis Bacon and Edgar Cayce. When the paranormal and occult are drawn into the picture, it can create an attitude and atmosphere of doubt among those inclined to more logical explanations of things.

I did find a message board this morning, dating from 1997, discussing archeology in and around Bimini. One submission was from an individual who claimed to have assisted a researcher named Valentine in the late '60's to debunk the "Bimini road" hypothesis. I also later saw reference to a natural phenomenon in NE Ireland called the "Giant's Causeway." This still leaves other phenomena around Bimini unexplained.

In the past I looked into the Cousteau archives in an attempt to find info about the program I watched to no avail.

Other resources I found on the web showed what could have been stones that might have been worked (carved, rounded, squared, etc.), but they were not shown in place, like those I remember from Cousteau's program. I recall standing fluted columns.

There are suggestions from other researchers that pyramidal structures as well exist under water in Bimini, and associations are made connecting this with South American structures in Cuba and the Yucatan (Ancient Mayan culture), as well the Azores, various Mediterranean islands and Egypt.

Whether one wishes to imply Atlantis in the esoteric sense is at best irrelevent, in my opinion. My intent was to further demonstrate the much more capable abilities of our ancient forebears in construction, and everything that implies across several boundaries including culture and religion. Not unlike attributing spiritual connotations to the Pyramid at Giza, the structure exists, all else at this point is conjecture. Not that conjecture doesn't have its place in developing understanding. The structures exist in the waters off of Bimini, the esoteric connotations are only a form of conjecture as to why.

I would be greatly interested in anyone's further take in this direction, including any related archeology from elsewhere, either supporting or not.

Thanks.

[Avinash]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Was Atlantis a real place, or is it a metaphor - or is it simply a focus of a morality tale, too long interpreted literally?

Namaskar,

I saw a documentary some time ago about the ancient city of Akrotiri in the Minoan civilization (Mediteranian) that was destroyed by an eruption of the volcano Thera around 1450 BC (so at the time or just after the advent of Lord Krishna). The shape of the city seems to be very close to the description of Atlantis by Plato (according to this documentary).

What is the connection (if any) between the name Atlantis and the name of the Atlantic Ocean? Does anyone perhaps know this?


http://www.magicaljourneys.com/Santo...-akrotiri.html

[neoxenos]

Something existed. This is a report I wrote up. Take everything with a grain of salt...
[See attachment.]

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

some scholars imply that he "doctored" his presentation for various reasons, not least politics and morality.

Pretty much everything from the ancient world suffered this fate.

As for a real location - it's certainly not inconceivable that some prior model was used as an inspiration for the tale. Minoa has always been a favourite suggestion, but one of the main criteria is that it was supposed to be near the "Pillars of Hercules" - the Straits of Gibralter. Personally, if I were seeking a historical model for Atlantis I would also look towards the Scilly Isles - which originally served as a main stopping point by Mediterranean sailors, but later in large part disapeared under the waves due to rising sea levels. Really, though, to even look for a historical Atlantis in the first place is perhaps to move too much into literalism and fail to appreciate metaphor. Just 2c.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Avinash, and thank you for your post.

Originally Posted by Avinash

What is the connection (if any) between the name Atlantis and the name of the Atlantic Ocean? Does anyone perhaps know this?

I cannot speak of the origins of the names "Atlantis" and "Atlantic", but in going through the material I did find that the terms "atl" and "antis" are terms used in Central American cultures such as the Mayans. One that came to mind is the spear thrown with a stick called "atlatl."

And thank you for the link, the pictures are great!

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, neoxenos, and welcome to CR!

Originally Posted by neoxenos

Something existed. This is a report I wrote up. Take everything with a grain of salt...
[See attachment.]

I read your attachment, quite interesting. While there are some points I would have some trouble with, other points are raised that have long intrigued me, such as the Piri Re'is map.

A point not considered concerning the tobacco/cocaine connection between Egypt and So. America is the efforts of Thor Heyrdahl with the Ra I and Ra II voyages. While this does not "prove" Atlantis, it does support early communication between those cultures, at a time when humans are traditionally not supposed to be capable of such feats of travel.

Thanks.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Brian!

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Pretty much everything from the ancient world suffered this fate.

Yes, this is the bane of historians, not only then but now as well.

As for a real location - it's certainly not inconceivable that some prior model was used as an inspiration for the tale. Minoa has always been a favourite suggestion, but one of the main criteria is that it was supposed to be near the "Pillars of Hercules" - the Straits of Gibralter. Personally, if I were seeking a historical model for Atlantis I would also look towards the Scilly Isles - which originally served as a main stopping point by Mediterranean sailors, but later in large part disapeared under the waves due to rising sea levels.

I had not heard the Scilly Isles mentioned in this context before, certainly a consideration. It is not impossible that if this society/culture/nation existed, then what we are able to find (such as Akrotiri and Bimini) may only be satellite cities, not "downtown" Atlantis proper.

Really, though, to even look for a historical Atlantis in the first place is perhaps to move too much into literalism and fail to appreciate metaphor. Just 2c.

I appreciate this sentiment, but wasn't Troy found by chasing a "metaphor?"

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

I appreciate this sentiment, but wasn't Troy found by chasing a "metaphor?"

Good reposte.

It's quite true that there is a general tendency to be dismissive of ancient peoples and their stories, and certainly we have been shown to do so at our peril (Pliny the Younger's observation of Pyroclastic Flows from Vesuvius is another classic example of classical commentary benig disregarded).

The trouble with Atlantis is that it is all so deeply entrenched in mysticism and speculation of the most imginative kind, that what we end up with seems so far removed from Plato's meagre descriptions.

Truly indeed myths are often imaginative fruit surrounding real seeds of truths - but I strongly suspect that any historical reality of what Atlantis may or may not have been like is gonig to be far far difference to the Edgar Cayce version.

As for the cocaine trade and Kontiki - yes, another example of how the achievements and ingenuity of our ancient ancestors are underestimated with impunity!

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Brian!

Originally Posted by I, Brian

I strongly suspect that any historical reality of what Atlantis may or may not have been like is gonig to be far far difference to the Edgar Cayce version.

Absolutely agreed, which is why I was hoping to avoid the flakier side of the subject.

As for the cocaine trade and Kontiki - yes, another example of how the achievements and ingenuity of our ancient ancestors are underestimated with impunity!

I had thought to leave this one alone, but it opens the door further still to expand on the subject. Kon Tiki was Heyrdahl's third voyage, in a vessel of completely different construction, that sailed from somewhere in the South Pacific Islands to So. America. As has been pointed out by other scholars, because Heyrdahl did these things does not mean that the ancients did too. BUT, it does mean such journeys were possible! There is a group called the Polynesian Voyaging Society, and they have been sailing ocean going open outrigger canoes throughout the Pacific from Hawaii to New Zealand to Easter Island, without modern navigational equipment, and have been doing so on a regular basis since the late 1970's, and the last I checked they had only lost one man. The canoes are modelled on traditional Polynesian layouts and methods. Quite a worthy feat in my opinion, especially considering their forebears were doing the same a couple of thousand years before.

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it, Columbus!
(BTW, this comment is not aimed at anybody in particular, it is a general rant at the machine)

[I, Brian]

Well, well - look what the Spanish dragged in - another potential site.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3766863.stm

The interpretation seems a little forced, bt it's interesting nonetheless.

[juantoo3]

Cool!

[juantoo3]

Does anybody have more than a cursory familiarity with the Phoenicians they might like to share?

[Pet Zepi]

Well......if it didn't,

it would certainly appear to now.

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Does anybody have more than a cursory familiarity with the Phoenicians they might like to share?

I know there was a book I was chasing up for a while - racking my brains here.