Atheists challenge the religious right

[Zagreus]

This is beautiful, Chris. It's empowering and *affirming* the way you put it. I'm learning that we have a tremendous of leeway, of spiritual freedom. And that we can tap power untold, with almost no end in sight to the resultant creativity.

In this sense, we can have our cake and eat it too. But there is a Divine Order, a `Way things Work.' At most we can bend the rules, but we cannot break them ... not without the consequences you speak of. What goes up, must come down. If you push something hard enough, it will ... fall over. Or was that the Firesign Theatre?

Really though, there are moral laws, every bit as valid as those of physics. And I think that this is the most important dimension of *any* religion, or of religion per se: to help humanity to understand the spiritual laws that govern life, the universe and everything, and the Purpose for these laws.

Atheists may not believe that a single Deity is behind all of Creation, and may find the religious right an easy target ... but I wonder how they explain things like the laws of mathematics, the Divine Ratio (or Golden Mean, which is evidenced throughout nature), or just the simple beauty with which our planet abounds. If this is not God's handiwork, then whose? I don't see how anyone in their right mind can babble on about a "fortuitous, spontaneous concurrence of atoms." Balderdash! Poppycock!!!

~Zag

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I don't think God judges at all. I think that there is a natural Way that works best. Many possible paths within that way. We can choose to swim upstream or down. We can choose to manipulate the natural way for profit at the expense of other life. Whatever we choose sets up the circumstances of our life and determines the extent to which we connect with, walk with if you will, God. There are consequences to every choice we make- some are obvious and some aren't.

If we choose not to decide, or are oblivious to our ability to choose, the consequences are still the same. But if we consciously choose to align our intentions with, and actively participate with the Way we gain the ability to tap into the power source that creates and sustains the universe, and that's some kinda power!

Chris

Chris,
Is this what you meant?... 1 Corinthians 15:42-44

So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Or did you mean something else?

Sincerely, Karen

[China Cat Sunflower]

I'm going to have to think about that Karen. What you're suggesting has very deep ramifications.

"Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual."

Chris

[flowperson]

Hello all:

This is all reminiscent of the ancient Egyptian beliefs in the "ka" and "ba", the ka being the material body's spiritual double that exists before birth and lives on past death, and the ba being the living body's shadow double that appears at birth and disappears upon death.
flow....

[17th Angel]

I don't believe ALL atheists, have this agenda, to challenge religions. I would say the majority just haven't been convinced by religion, so they get the atheist mark branded upon them... Something about the title atheist...

"Hi, yeah I'm 17th... I'm an atheist..." lol, I would never say that. I guess with some it could be a name to identify them, and because of this they want to live up to bringing as many from the religious side to the "atheist side" But I would suspect the majority of atheists couldn't give a rats butt, about challenging religion. But, I think how religious people hold on to their little titles oh so proudly. I'm a jew!! I'm a muslim! I'm a christian! It means something to them and they will hold on to it cause it apparently means something important to be able to call themselves by this name... I guess they expect everyone who doesn't believe to hang on to some title...

[Prober]

Originally Posted by pattimax

In case there is any question: If you are a Christian, then God is your father and you are His child. (regardless of thread consensus)

AMEN to that!

[Prober]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

If a student does NOT judge, then the teacher can not help him. A person judges and reveals it with every word and with every action.

I completely agree. I would add that labeling is another thing entirely.

[Prober]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I don't think God judges at all.
Chris

...Until the end, of course - His Final Judgement.

I agreed with and loved the rest of your post.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I don't think God judges at all. I think that there is a natural Way that works best. Many possible paths within that way. We can choose to swim upstream or down. We can choose to manipulate the natural way for profit at the expense of other life. Whatever we choose sets up the circumstances of our life and determines the extent to which we connect with, walk with if you will, God. There are consequences to every choice we make- some are obvious and some aren't.

If we choose not to decide, or are oblivious to our ability to choose, the consequences are still the same. But if we consciously choose to align our intentions with, and actively participate with the Way we gain the ability to tap into the power source that creates and sustains the universe, and that's some kinda power!

Chris

Wow! Great post!

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Wow! Great post!

I concur. Great post, Chris!

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I'm going to have to think about that Karen. What you're suggesting has very deep ramifications.

"Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual."

Chris

Chris,
Deep ramifications, indeed. I am taking the intense beauty and grace of the cross into consideration.
sincerely, Karen

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

I don't believe ALL atheists, have this agenda, to challenge religions. I would say the majority just haven't been convinced by religion, so they get the atheist mark branded upon them... Something about the title atheist...

"Hi, yeah I'm 17th... I'm an atheist..." lol, I would never say that. I guess with some it could be a name to identify them, and because of this they want to live up to bringing as many from the religious side to the "atheist side" But I would suspect the majority of atheists couldn't give a rats butt, about challenging religion. But, I think how religious people hold on to their little titles oh so proudly. I'm a jew!! I'm a muslim! I'm a christian! It means something to them and they will hold on to it cause it apparently means something important to be able to call themselves by this name... I guess they expect everyone who doesn't believe to hang on to some title...

I truly wish you would realize that true Christianity has nothing to do with titles or labels. At the second coming of Christ, I seriously doubt there will be any self-aggrandizement.

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by pattimax

Chris,
Deep ramifications, indeed. I am taking the intense beauty and grace of the cross into consideration.
sincerely, Karen

I don't understand the necessity of Jesus death, or original sin, or the "plan of salvation." I know what Christians believe, and I know what the Bible says, but I don't understand the nuts and bolts of why and how.

Chris

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by Prober

...Until the end, of course - His Final Judgement.

I agreed with and loved the rest of your post.

Thanks Mark!

Just a question: Does God actually do any judging at the "final judgement"? IOW, aside from judgement being passed, is there any debate where God makes judgement calls? You know, like instant replay on an iffy call?

Chris

[Dondi]

According to Jesus, this is the basis for judgment:

"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." - John 12:48-50

The essence of Jesus's teachings is about Loving God and loving our neighbor. To the extent we have done this in our lives is the extent that we will be judged.