Are humans independent of God?

[Postmaster]

This is a confusing matter for me



Are humans independent of God and his will? But how can that be if God is everything and part of everyone and governs and created all life? If God knows everything in advance and sometimes even people themselves can predict things before they happen, what is the point of us performing life? Is independence of God free will? Does making a bond with God mean giving up free will?

[queenofsheba]

This is an eternal theological discussion. It was a basic dispute between Luther and the catholics. The catholics said that you can buy a place in heaven by giving money to the church, Luther denied this.

I think it would be a pretty lame excuse to rob a bank and then say: "I'm sorry, but God programmed me to do it."

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

This is a confusing matter for me



Are humans independent of God and his will? But how can that be if God is everything and part of everyone and governs and created all life? If God knows everything in advance and sometimes even people themselves can predict things before they happen, what is the point of us performing life? Is independence of God free will? Does making a bond with God mean giving up free will?

I'll give this my best shot- but yeah, this is one of those confusing and oft-debated issues.

I do not believe anything is independent of God, because God is the Life behind all life. Or as one Christian put it (forgetting who)- "God is the ground of Being on which all being rests." However, I think we have free will, and that it is independent of His will.

How can that be? Well, I don't think God "governs" all life in an immediate sense. I think He created life in such a way that it continues on its own accord. I do think God is omniscient, but knowing everything and causing everything are two different things. And I don't think people get glimpses of what will happen, but rather what will happen if... That is, under the current courses of action, such and such will result. But I don't think anything is inevitable except the proverbial death and taxes. I don't think that everything that happens is according to God's will or plan. I think we can choose whether to follow His will or not. Otherwise, we would have to conclude that all sorts of evil actions are part of God's will, and I don't think that is the case. I don't think Hitler was acting in accordance with God's will, for example. I believe that thinking everything is "as it should be" is abdicating our own responsibility to act in accordance with the will of the Father, as it was revealed to us through the Gospel of Jesus Christ. God has a plan, but it's up to us and our own free will to seek to be guided by it, and we can do otherwise. I do think God can work good through evil actions, but it is not His will to have the evil actions occur, but rather the case of making metaphysical lemonade out of lemons, of being faithful to His people no matter what. That doesn't mean the lemons were meant to be. Furthermore, I think we as humans misunderstand what omniscience is. We tend to think of time as linear- because for us it seems that it is. We are born, grow up, grow old, and die. We go to first grade, then second, and so on. But God exists outside time and space. So His omniscience is not so much seeing what will happen, but rather seeing all that ever happened and ever will happen at once, in every moment. At least, this is what I believe. So past/present/future is more a function of us being alive in this particular physical reality than some sort of foundation for all Reality. Time is relative.

I do not think indepence of God is free will, nor do I think being connected to God is giving up free will. If it was, those who gave themselves to God would be perfect, just as God is, because their bodies would be entirely animated by God's will rather than their own. But all who are bonded to God know that the road is still often a difficult one to tread, requiring patience and self-control. I think one has free will whether or not one connects with God. But when we have a relationship with God, we find that we want to please Him and to serve others. We recognize that God's plans are better informed than our own, and so we seek to do His will. We find that the path of best action is the one that resonates with God. So, out of our free will, we consciously seek ever more to pour out our own desires and plans for His will, to become Christ's hands and feet and eyes on earth. Yet we do so out of free will to the end of our days, and beyond. God created us as beings with free will and independent thought, and that is what we are- it is intrinsic to our being.

[Blessed87]

I found a article of sorts on this: http://www.gotquestions.org/free-will-sovereign.html

Some people spend their entire lives debating on this issue. I wonder what God is thinking when we ask questions and give answers about things like this. I guess when those of us who are believers are in heaven we'll understand, or we won't care at all anymore!

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Blessed87

I found a article of sorts on this: http://www.gotquestions.org/free-will-sovereign.html

Some people spend their entire lives debating on this issue. I wonder what God is thinking when we ask questions and give answers about things like this. I guess when those of us who are believers are in heaven we'll understand, or we won't care at all anymore!

that was a good article Blessed. & yes they do spend there whole lives debating it & often go to one extreme or the other.
i reccomend walking right down the middle with it, until a clear understanding comes.


To Pathof One, I enjoyed your writing on it also.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

How can that be? Well, I don't think God "governs" all life in an immediate sense. I think He created life in such a way that it continues on its own accord. I do think God is omniscient, but knowing everything and causing everything are two different things. And I don't think people get glimpses of what will happen, but rather what will happen if... That is, under the current courses of action, such and such will result. But I don't think anything is inevitable except the proverbial death and taxes. I don't think that everything that happens is according to God's will or plan. I think we can choose whether to follow His will or not. Otherwise, we would have to conclude that all sorts of evil actions are part of God's will, and I don't think that is the case. I don't think Hitler was acting in accordance with God's will, for example. I believe that thinking everything is "as it should be" is abdicating our own responsibility to act in accordance with the will of the Father, as it was revealed to us through the Gospel of Jesus Christ. God has a plan, but it's up to us and our own free will to seek to be guided by it, and we can do otherwise. I do think God can work good through evil actions, but it is not His will to have the evil actions occur, but rather the case of making metaphysical lemonade out of lemons, of being faithful to His people no matter what. That doesn't mean the lemons were meant to be. Furthermore, I think we as humans misunderstand what omniscience is. We tend to think of time as linear- because for us it seems that it is. We are born, grow up, grow old, and die. We go to first grade, then second, and so on. But God exists outside time and space. So His omniscience is not so much seeing what will happen, but rather seeing all that ever happened and ever will happen at once, in every moment. At least, this is what I believe. So past/present/future is more a function of us being alive in this particular physical reality than some sort of foundation for all Reality. Time is relative.
.

Hi path of one,

I think perhaps we could say that we can choose God's Way or God's Guidance, from whatever source we believe it comes, but it's pretty hard to sort out whether our free will is independent of God's will. I agree with the what you said about there being a difference between creating it and knowing how it all turns out vs. God needing to supernaturally intervene to keep things going. I have no idea how it all works, but I just wanted to add that I believe that one way or another God' plan is carried out in spite of the the evil we do, but not because of it. He does not want things like the Spanish Inquisition and withc hunts, God does not want us to choose evil, that is not His will or plan. Nevertheless, He carries out His plan knowing the bad choices we make along the way.

I think we are on the same page about this, just both being bound by the limitations of language.

peace,
lunamoth

[Postmaster]

Here's my theory, if God is infinite (always been there and always will be) How can we comprehend his actions when he have had a "beginning" and are the "created"? We have limited capacity to understand God actions. So these are one of the many questions that if we spend our whole lives trying to answer we will always end up back to square one and someone out there will always have an argument for what we say. The only philosophies about God that count are the ones that our minds can understand and comprehend these philosophies are the most harmonious and probably what God intended us to think about, he exists, he loves us, and Good always wins, he's the creator, and there's an after life.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Here's my theory, if God is infinite (always been there and always will be) How can we comprehend his actions when he have had a "beginning" and are the "created"? We have limited capacity to understand God actions. So these are one of the many questions that if we spend our whole lives trying to answer we will always end up back to square one and someone out there will always have an argument for what we say. The only philosophies about God that count are the ones that our minds can understand and comprehend these philosophies are the most harmonious and probably what God intended us to think about, he exists, he loves us, and Good always wins, he's the creator, and there's an after life.

i dont think God limits our understanding Postmaster. We are limited on many ways but not in understanding. Understanding it all? probably not.
We get stuck in traditions & doctrines & that is what limits our understanding. Once again, the scripture tells us above all, GET UNDERSTANDING

OTH- what you are saying in the latter there is a good way to go also.

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I think we are on the same page about this, just both being bound by the limitations of language.

LOL- yep! I agree with you- it's just language getting in the way.

[Postmaster]

Originally Posted by Bandit

i dont think God limits our understanding Postmaster. We are limited on many ways but not in understanding. Understanding it all? probably not.
We get stuck in traditions & doctrines & that is what limits our understanding. Once again, the scripture tells us above all, GET UNDERSTANDING

OTH- what you are saying in the latter there is a good way to go also.

I'd say we are all limited in understanding as much as we are in running, flying, eating and living.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

I'd say we are all limited in understanding as much as we are in running, flying, eating and living.

that would surely be putting a limit on understanding.

[Postmaster]

I just think that in this material world there is a limit to everything. Divine understanding to me is when we think at simple level. That's what I meant to say.

Like Socrates said, I'm the wisest man alive, I only know one thing and that's that I know nothing. We will never discover the mysteries of God, know matter how hard we try. Really even the bible doesn't get all too technical to all our answers, it tells us what we need to know. And that’s all that counts. Faith. I consider myself wrong when I ask all these questions.