Answering a Fundamentalist Christian

[yogaman]

I am not sure how to ask this question. I certainly don't want to step on any toes. So here I go.

I often come across fundementalist Christians living here in the states of the USA. I live in North Carolina which is part of the Bible belt. I was raised Lutheran but don't practice Lutheranism as I was taught. I just have had too many questions concerning Christianity as it has been taught to me. So my spirituality has evolved as I have read from scientific literature, eastern religious thought, and other spiritual teachers. My beliefs are drawn from many schools of thought and I adhere to nothing with strongly as I believe that growth spiritually is an evolutionary process and it is good for me to remain an open and thinking person. I do however believe strongly in God but I don't anthropomorphize God. God for me is creation itself. God is in everything and we are all part of God. God is simply a word to describe the creative process of the world but that is not all. God is love and I see God as a loving act of creation. We can all tap into this force for lack of a better "word.'

I do not believe in the fundamentalist concept of hell. I cannot see that a loving creator would send any of its creation to be damned for all eternity for eternal punishment. I accept things like reincaration as a plausible explaination for the evolution of the human spirit so that those who are not connected to that creative force of love called God have the opportunity to evolve further in there quest for union with the Creator. Of course, like any other belief, this cannot be proved, but it seems to me to be a more resourseful belief that is not based in fear. What bothers me about a lot of Christian belief systems, particularly fundementalists beliefs is that they are based in fear and use fear to capture those who are less questioning into there fold. The concept of a punitive God who punishes those who do not believe a certain set of mandates just doesn't sit right with me. Having a religion that says that if one doesn't believe is therefore not "saved" and will incur the wrath of God just doesn't make sense.

Living in the south, and having the "beliefs" that I do, makes it hard to respond to fundamentalists since I allow flexiblity and change in my thinking and beliefs as I grow and gain new information and insight. In a fundamentalist view, this makes me wishy washy or not committed or whatever they may think. Of course mostly it makes me not a real Christian in their eyes. I am not threatened by this as I am comfortable with my viewpoint and the fact that it changes over time. I do not have the "knowledge" of the Bible as some Fundementalists and cannot quote scripture as man can even though I know that this "knowledge" that they have comes from a very often literal interpretation and in my view is based on their on limited knowledge as well. For example, I could read a book and memorize everything in it and draw certain conclusions but without other information my interpretation of what I have memorized and claim to know would be quite limited and very possibly wrong and out of context.

However, for the purposes of debate and responding to Fundamentalist attacks, I would like to be armed with intelligent responses to those attacks. So my question is, does anyone know of any books or websites or other material that a thinking person could use to address intelligently many of the main concepts that so many Fundamentalists use to justify there beliefs and positions?

Thank you for any and all reponses and support.

[flowperson]

Yogaman..welcome to CR !

You'll find plenty of company here for your POV.

Many conflicts of religious opinion have been engaged here over the months that I've been here, but most of the time it is only friendly, courteous, and sometimes blindingly funny to interact with the others here. My suggestion for you would be to read as many of the threads that interest you as you might be able. Your place in this little universe will become self-evident as you read and participate in your own unique ways.

Again...welcome !

flow....

[Pathless]

Welcome to CR, yogaman. I can relate to where you are coming from as I spent quite a bit of time living in South Carolina and questioning the church that I was brought up in as well as "mainstream" Christianity.

I don't have any specific recommendations of books or anything, and would simply encourage you to keep reading widely and educating yourself on a wide range of issues (spiritual, political, cultural, etc). I think you may have pointed to the answer of your question here:

Originally Posted by yogaman

For example, I could read a book and memorize everything in it and draw certain conclusions but without other information my interpretation of what I have memorized and claim to know would be quite limited and very possibly wrong and out of context.

In my own experience, I've found "arguing" with fundamentalists to be frustrating and futile. It seems like they are not interested in putting things in context. Indeed, to approach their faith with subjectivity and from a dynamic perspective that gives other spiritualities integrity seems to be threatening for these people, and somehow linked with their own damnation and rejection by the god of their belief system.

These days when I do find myself in some kind of conflict or confrontation with these people, I don't tend to pull any punches. I often feel personally offended and violated by the assumptions they carry about religion. I don't think I feel threatened by them at this point, although I get frustrated and irritated that they seem unwilling or unable to shift their perspective or take into account others' beliefs in a non-condescending way.

Peace,
Pathless

[Nick the Pilot]

Yoga,

My answer:

"I can see you are happy being a fundamental Christian, and I am glad to see you have found what works for you. Unfortunately, fundamentalism Christianity does not work for me."

--> If they ask why, tell them.

Certainly, reincarnatioin and eternal Hell are incompatible. If you need help formulating your answers to their questions, please do not hesitiate to ask.

By the way, I believe in Hell, but not an eternal Hell. I find no conflict between the ideas of Hell and reincarnation whatsoever.

[wil]

Namaste Yogaman,

Live and let live if they'll let you.

I can sit now in most any church and enjoy the sermon...

Wasn't always that way.

Everyone is where they need to be, learning the lesson they need to learn, including me.

peace.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by yogaman

However, for the purposes of debate and responding to Fundamentalist attacks, I would like to be armed with intelligent responses to those attacks. So my question is, does anyone know of any books or websites or other material that a thinking person could use to address intelligently many of the main concepts that so many Fundamentalists use to justify there beliefs and positions?

Thank you for any and all reponses and support.

McResponses (ready made) are not really useful for anyone's spiritual growth. If you think your own responses and objections through on your own, any dialog you engage in would be more genuine, and your own spiritual development would be more of the "homegrown" variety, rather than the "farmed" variety.

[yogaman]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

McResponses (ready made) are not really useful for anyone's spiritual growth. If you think your own responses and objections through on your own, any dialog you engage in would be more genuine, and your own spiritual development would be more of the "homegrown" variety, rather than the "farmed" variety.

Everyone here has given me great information and insight and I thank you all. Keep it coming.

I do want to clarify what I am asking a little bit more here. And I understand the concept of "McResonses" but maybe more accurately, where could I gather information that succinctly describes the major questions, debates, or beliefs that the average "on the street" fundementalist Christian has so that I could think about what I would say to that person that would be my own genuine thought process based on what I believe? I don't think that the
"average" fundementalist really delves deep into questioning their own beliefs but rather parrots what is fed to them, (and this phenomena is not exclusive to fundementalists of course) but it is what they spit out or parrot, the main stuff of there beliefs, that I would like to gather insight into so that I could think about it in relation to what I think.

Right now, I am not looking for lengthy dissertations on the roots of fundementalism or psychoanalytical assessments of the fundementalist but just what the average "on the street" Christian fundementalist thinks about in regard to their faith or belief, the lense through which they see the world. Is there any succinct info out there which I can read so that I can relate their beliefs to mine. With this information, I can then ask myself, "How would I respond to that...?"

[InLove]

"McResponses". I like that.

Welcome to CR, yogaman. Like you, I come from a very fundamentalist community. So I figure you understand that there are different kinds of fundamentalism. Some of it screams and shouts all day long about hell and eternal damnation and some of it doesn't. I find the former very difficult to deal with, so I am learning to just go on about the spiritual journey and try and let some of that stuff fall away. I am finding that when I do speak up about it, it isn't for me, but for others who gently try to say something and wind up getting "sent to hell" for attempting to respond. However, at some point, I have to realize that if they are truly seeking, they will find, whether I speak up or not.

Only you can live your spiritual life. No one can, in reality, decide what is right for you. Just speak from your heart, and don't worry about formulated apologetics or set responses. Speaking from the heart may not always earn us a place at the scholar's table, but I find it shines a sufficient light. And at the end of the day, I sleep well. LOL--that said, there is something that has been bothering me for a day or two, and now I must go and speak up about it!

InPeace,
InLove

[Prober]

Originally Posted by yogaman

So my question is, does anyone know of any books or websites or other material that a thinking person could use to address intelligently many of the main concepts that so many Fundamentalists use to justify there beliefs and positions?

Thank you for any and all reponses and support.

I'm a "thinking person" and a fundamentalist. ()

I don't know of any books or websites you could use. I just know that, like you, I spent years studying eastern philosophy and other religions and came back to being a "fundamentalist" Christian because that works for me. I don't know how it works, but it does (Praise G-d!).

Those years I spent studying taught me that each person's viewpoint is a valuable tool and much of what I learned now enhances my spiritual experience.

Good luck in your journey.

Best Regards,
Mark

[Dondi]

Keep in mind, please, that most fundamentalists are really people who are concerned with people's souls. I do not believe that a majority of them have a secret recruiting agenda, that is trying to gain memebrs to their church, but rather in their own understanding they believe in hell as a terrible place to be and really do not want to conceive anyone going there. So I think that they are honest in the efforts to win folks to Christ so they won't end up there.

A bit about the fear factor. Striking up images of a fiery hell with fire and brimestone, wailing and nashing of teeth, outer darkness, and the like were preached by Jesus. But I think for the most part that was intended for those who know better, who had had a knowledge of God, but rejected His Ways. I do not think that kind of punishment was meant for the ignorance. There are those without the knowledge of Christ who are honestly trying to live righteously accordingly as their conscience, upbringing, and knowledge allows. It makes sense to me that God would give due consideration to those trying the best the can with the "light" they have been given, and the bible seems to support that. I totally believe God is fair in His judgment and those who are unrepentent about their selfish wicked ways He will mete out appropiate punishment. I, for one, find eternal punishment kinda hard to swallow, except for perhaps the most heinious of sinners.

But there ought to be the flip side of evangelism. Any efforts to win souls to the Lord should be tempered with the light of God's Love for them. The whole crux of Jesus' message is this:

"...Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. " - Matthew 22:37-40

As simple as this is, that is what I get out of the entire gamet of scriptures. Furthermore, I believe this is transcendent across most of the major existing religions. It is the predicate upon which the Golden Rule is anchored on.

Honestly, I believe that many fundamentals miss this point. they are so busy in trying to get people to buy into Christ that they forget or are ignorant of the very purpose that God has for us: That is to conform us into the image of His Son. We are to emulate Christ in our lives, shining as Lights to a dark world in a spirit of mercy, forgiveness, humbleness, and love. Christ is our example, but should we fail (and we do repeatedly), we fall back on the grace that is provided for us through the sacrifical atonement of Christ through the death, burial, and resurrection. The grace we receive is sorta the maintenance our souls need when we do not live up to His Standards and really supplements the aim to bring us to the goal of becoming Christlike.

Such is my view.

[Pathless]

Good points, Dondi. I think you are right on in saying that (at least some) fundamentalists tend to be concerned about the prospect of people suffering in hell for all eternity, and so they preach and proselytize what they believe is the light and truth. Good to keep in mind.

You mentioned something that I find curious:

Originally Posted by Dondi

A bit about the fear factor. Striking up images of a fiery hell with fire and brimestone, wailing and nashing of teeth, outer darkness, and the like were preached by Jesus.

Not to be challenging or contrarian, but I am just not familiar with the passages in the Bible where Jesus conjures up a fiery hell for people to contemplate and fear. I haven't read much of the Bible in a looooong time, except for Prober's favored passage, 1st Corinthians. This is a bit of a digression, but could you point a brotherman towards the verses where Jesus talks about hell as fire, darkness, and eternal torture?

Thanks,
P

[Prober]

Originally Posted by Dondi

they are so busy in trying to get people to buy into Christ that they forget or are ignorant of the very purpose that God has for us: That is to conform us into the image of His Son.

Enjoyed your post, Dondi.

This (imo) is the most important part!

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Pathless

Good points, Dondi. I think you are right on in saying that (at least some) fundamentalists tend to be concerned about the prospect of people suffering in hell for all eternity, and so they preach and proselytize what they believe is the light and truth. Good to keep in mind.

You mentioned something that I find curious:



Not to be challenging or contrarian, but I am just not familiar with the passages in the Bible where Jesus conjures up a fiery hell for people to contemplate and fear. I haven't read much of the Bible in a looooong time, except for Prober's favored passage, 1st Corinthians. This is a bit of a digression, but could you point a brotherman towards the verses where Jesus talks about hell as fire, darkness, and eternal torture?

Thanks,
P

Just a several few:

"And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." Matthew 5:29-30

"And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." - Matthew 8:11-12

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." - Matthew 25:30

"Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." - Matthew 25:45-46


And of course we have that Rich Man and Lararus parable in Luke:

"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence." - Luke 16:23-26


I'm sure there are others, many paralleled in the other Gospels. That's all concerning what Jesus said, but not to mention what the rest of the NT speaks of, including Revelation.

[Nick the Pilot]

Hi everybody!

One point has not been adequately covered — harrassing people into becoming Christians, thinking the ends justifies the means. The joke is on these fundamentalist proselyters — I am sure they will spend an appropriate amount of time in Hell for what they do. (Some belief systems teach Hell never lasts for eternity, which make sense to me.)

[Snoopy]

Hi yogaman and welcome to CR!

As a central portal for your “spiritual growth” you probably can’t get better than this very site: there’s all manner of folk on here to talk to, ask questions of, debate, or just plain be silly with. There is a thread on this site called “Win Your Argument!!!” but it’s there as a joke - at least that was the intention (though recreational arguers may find it useful I suppose).

I spend a lot of time reading and surfing the net and recently saw a quote which said “The only book worth reading is your heart.” I feel this is very true. However, I shall continue to read and surf! (Because of course if I hadn't been surfing ["e-reading"] then I wouldn't have seen the quote!)

We can perhaps all be somewhere along the spectrum from fundamentalist to liberal depending on the topic, so that what we see in others we may also be able to see in ourselves sometimes. You are not about to change anyone’s mind who is 100% certain that they are “right” on an issue (at least not publicly or in the short term) and as you say you are comfortable with your own viewpoint, there need not be any difficulty in “responding” to fundamentalist Christians. You can only respond honestly, since the only way that you cannot be wishy washy and uncommitted in their eyes is to be exactly like them; which you plainly are not. So have faith in your mind.

Snoopy.