another yoga and christianity commentary

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

lmfao.... So a satanic orgy in church with the background music of the lords prayer would be classed harmless? Wow.

Christian yoga is harmless...

[17th Angel]

Roll your eyes at me young man! You the one who said it!

[Thomas]

Hi Dondi –

How can it be dangerous to meditate on God?
It's not the object of the exercise (God) that is dangerous, its the methodology.

Posture and breathing, individually and in concert, can have quite profound psychodynamic and psychological effects ... in fact any such discipline, undertaken without supervision and informed direction, has inherent dangers not from outside, but from within, from the psyche - our own private 'Pandora's Box'. That's the danger ... and it is a very real risk.

I know this is not a popular viewpoint, but I listen seriously to the experts in any and every tradition, East and West, and the teaching is always the same – deep or intensive practice should not be attempted without adequate and expert direction and supervision.

+++

Hi Mark

Is there any connection with Hesychasm and Kriya yoga?

Yes ... and no ...

A good question, and central to the whole debate.

The monks of Mount Athos, for example, perhaps the foremost exponents of the Hesychast Way, do treat of posture and breathing as part of the practice, but they emphasise, quite emphatically, that all such 'technique' is secondary and in effect, accidental, the primary focus and object of Hesychasm being the operation of Divine Grace. Hence the Prayer of Simplicity and the Way of Stillness.

Yoga in that context is about self-power ... Prayer and Hesychasm is about other-power ... I know that's over-simplifying it, but basically yoga caught on in the West as a 'get results quick' technique, which is what the West is all about.

I once joked with an Orthodox Priest that I could never be Orthodox because my beard is too uneven (in fact more like the Chinese sage!). He told me the only reason they grew beards was to tell them how far forward to lean the head in meditation ... just enough for the tip of the beard to rest on the chest is about right ...

+++

When I was studying meditation under Buddhist teachers, I was told (as Catholics do) ignore all visions, voices ... in fact all phenomenal occurrance during meditation, the Buddhist say it's the ego playing games – and we all know the easiest person to fool is ourselves ... the Catholics say if God wants a word, He will make His presence known in no uncertain fashion ...

Let me say again – I have nothing personally against any 'technique' as long as, in a Christian context, it's understood that grace cannot be forced. I would further say that anything that can be arrived at by a practical methodology is thereby natural in itself and not necessarily 'spiritual' in a Christian context. The often-quoted benefits of meditation - peace, calm, relaxed, rested, vital, awake, energised, creative, etc,. are not spiritual qualities, they are natural qualities.

What I do object to is the idea that Christianity – or any tradition for that matter – might itself benefit from, or be deficient in, something that needs be imported from without.

Thomas






Thomas














Hesychasm is the Way of Stillness

[Zagreus]

Originally Posted by Thomas

The often-quoted benefits of meditation - peace, calm, relaxed, rested, vital, awake, energised, creative, etc,. are not spiritual qualities, they are natural qualities.

... creativity is not a spiritual "quality" at all. It is the 3rd Aspect of Deity!

Originally Posted by Thomas

Let me say again – I have nothing personally against any 'technique' as long as, in a Christian context, it's understood that grace cannot be forced. I would further say that anything that can be arrived at by a practical methodology is thereby natural in itself and not necessarily 'spiritual' in a Christian context. The often-quoted benefits of meditation - peace, calm, relaxed, rested, vital, awake, energised, creative, etc,. are not spiritual qualities, they are natural qualities.

Let's look at this another way. In order to gain entry into college, students must demonstrate a certain level of mathematical aptitude. Let us take two individuals, one the normal age for college acceptance, the other a child prodigy of say, 10 years old. The 18-year-old has had all the math courses, has been in the classroom with fellow students, and has been a very good math scholar. He passes his SAT exams easily, and gets into the college of his choice.

The child prodigy, by contrast, has never even taken a course on alegebra, much less trigonometry or calculus. He has not studied higher math with his fellow students, but rather has learned all he knows on his own, by *forcing* his way through various textbooks and exercises. He takes the SAT, scores perfectly in all categories, and like the other student is admitted to the college of his choice. His grades enable him to choose Yale or Harvard, but the point is, he has attained just as well as (or even better than) the older student.

Shall we say that the accomplishments of the prodigy do not count, that his circumstances are unusual (or somehow attributable to "nature alone," to be fair to the argument against meditation or Yoga)? He is not autistic, he does not pass his exams in a trance. Quite simply he has been able to apply himself, demonstrate mathematical aptitude equal to or greater than older, college-age students, and he has won the right to be accepted into college as a result. He may thank his lucky stars, or thank God, or whomever/whatever, for his gift and ability, but the fact remains: had he not applied himself and studied this *heretical* doctrine of higher math ahead of schedule, he would not be entering college early.

As for Grace, this may be one way to account for this young child's abilities, but once again - had he not applied himself, Grace would have been unable to get him into college. He applied HIMSELF, and he learned, and his mathematical exercises DID help him to pass his entrance exams with flying colors. Also, the sun shines brightly, and warmly, upon us all.

To suggest that the benefits of yoga are all reducible to no more than "natural results" while the devoted Christian (hesychast or otherwise) is somehow reaping the *real* "spiritual" rewards ... is pure absurdity. To say that various asanas fit best into one or the other yoga tradition makes good sense. To say that the yoga traditions, or various schools/disciplines, are complementary one with the other, makes good sense. To apply this logic to Christianity makes equally good sense, although I am not thoroughly acquainted with the hesychastic tradition.

But to try and strawman the possible - or even *proven* - value of Yoga, within Christianity or indeed ANY tradition ... really just shows one thing. It demonstrates a static understanding of something that has ever been, is now, and ever shall be PROGRESSIVE. And that is Revelation. God does not freeze-frame spiritual or religious reality, any more so than the growth of trees, birds, ecosystems and NATURE ... nor any more so than the growth of the individual, of economic theory, of the many scientific discplines, and all the branches of the arts.

Even if it is the LAST domain in which we finally recognize and accept that *here, too, is Progress*, we cannot help but one day see it. Completion, or perfection, is a flexible and dynamic reality, both approachable and attainable. Yoga, for some - Christian and non-Christian alike - benefits people on EVERY level, and the voice telling us that "this is not of God" or that "what you're doing is not REALLY worthwhile spiritually because there's no grace about it" ... ah well, like you said Thomas: Best to ignore all visions and voices; it is just the ego playing games.

~Zag

[Thomas]

Let's look at this another way ...

Actually, I'd rather not – we can come up with a multitude of hypothetical situations to justify ourselves, but I'd rather go with the tried, tested and proven method espoused by Tradition – whatever the Tradition – as the way to go.

No offence, I'm just old fashioned like that. I happen to agree with Prof. Huston Smith – that master of comparative religion, who said "Religion is the winnowed wisdom of the human race."

Thomas.

[Paladin]

Thomas,

It seems many people go outside of Orthodox Christianity to find a mystic connection. Being Confirmed Lutheran I didn't find anything of substance in Christianity in the normal teachings in church. It is only now as my head turns grey that I have embraced the Church in seeking the very mysticism I went looking for so very many years ago.
Is there perhaps something that needs changing in how the Church is presented? Or is it only a few persons who, still being hungry, search deeper into the Mysteries?

Peace
Mark

[Zagreus]

Originally Posted by Thomas

No offence, I'm just old fashioned like that. I happen to agree with Prof. Huston Smith – that master of comparative religion, who said "Religion is the winnowed wisdom of the human race."

Thomas.

Well I'm certainly with you there! And for simplicity's sake - not withstanding your comments on things like pranayama - I'd have to also go with what pattimax said: Christian yoga is harmless. When my own mother says she gets something out of it, I'm not going to give her a hard time. And if she comments that "it's just relaxing," ah well, I can accept that!

~Zag

[wil]

I don't know, I think it hokum.

Bending in this posture and breathing slowly is going to cause x, y or z.

Yes but x, y, and z are more oxygen to your brain, increased endorphins, brain waves settling.

Meditation...go into the room and close the door...whether we think this is a physical room or simply closing our mind to outside influences...give me a break...I need a tutor, a mentor, to sit down and shut up? It isn't safe?

I don't know, I think it hokum.

[Thomas]

Hey Zagreus – don't get me wrong.

I practice zazan a la Soto Zen, because it suits me, but I don't think Christianity is deficient, it's just a person flavour, a hangup from my martial arts days...

Likewise I think the techniques of mindfulness and loving kindness (mettabhavana) that I learned are staggering and powerful, and I can incorporate them into my Christian practice, but I do so in a Christian context, I don't embrace the Buddhist nontheist perspective ... nor do I think they're necessarily 'spiritual' - in fact I would say they are utterly 'human' in the sense of that's what we should be like.

The point about 'Christian yoga' – which I might have more fruitfully said at the outset – what the heck do they think prayer is?

What do they think yoga is?

Thomas

[wil]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Hey Zagreus – don't get me wrong.

I practice zazan a la Soto Zen, because it suits me, but I don't think Christianity is deficient, it's just a person flavour, a hangup from my martial arts days...

Likewise I think the techniques of mindfulness and loving kindness (mettabhavana) that I learned are staggering and powerful, and I can incorporate them into my Christian practice, but I do so in a Christian context, I don't embrace the Buddhist nontheist perspective ... nor do I think they're necessarily 'spiritual' - in fact I would say they are utterly 'human' in the sense of that's what we should be like.

The point about 'Christian yoga' – which I might have more fruitfully said at the outset – what the heck do they think prayer is?

What do they think yoga is?

Thomas

Now that makes more sense to me Thomas... I could be totally lost, but isn't it that Buddhism is nontheist but just doesn't concern itself with the nature and existence of G-d? Isn't it not that it believes or doesn't believe but that it concerns itself more with the seen and the here, than the unseen and the later?

[Thomas]

Wil:
... but isn't it that Buddhism is nontheist but just doesn't concern itself with the nature and existence of G-d?...
Yes - as I understand it.

Isn't it not that it believes or doesn't believe but that it concerns itself more with the seen and the here, than the unseen and the later?
Not sure on that one? If you take the idea of transcendance out of Buddhism, what's left beyond ethics? I could be oversimplifying – but what makes Buddhism distinctly not a pure humanist philosophy, in the sense of socio-ethic, is the Enlightenment is absolutely central?

But either way then, it counterpoints Christianity which is absolutely focussed on the nature and existence of God ... so in my view 'Buddhist Christianity' is one of a philosophical schizophrenia? Either you focus on a diualogue with the Divine (Christianity) or you don't (Buddhism).

Thomas

[wil]

I apologize for getting us involved in Buddhist/Christian confusion when we started in Hindi/Christian confusion.

But in both regards, while I know there are discrepancies, there are also similarities. Like when I work on a Japanese car or an American car, while I am dealing with metric and ase, I can still use the same ratchet, and extensions, just need to modify slightly when I deal with the nuance (socket) and my hammer, screwdriver, pliers all work with either.

We call Christianity a western religion, and for me I see in Jesus teachings a lot of eastern influence. I do not consider myself Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist...but an American Christian...but I love Indian, Chinese and Japanese foods...and their traditions provide me not only physical nourishment but food for thought as well.


As to the nature, existence and reality of G-d...we Christians have not come close to comig to terms on this issue. We range the entire gamut of possibilities...so in this respect I have to admire the concept of not arguing about, harping on the unknown and unanswerable and working with loving the unknown, loving my neighbor and loving my enemy....got a lifetime of work right there....

[Francis king]

nicely said, wil

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by Thomas

I could be oversimplifying – but what makes Buddhism distinctly not a pure humanist philosophy, in the sense of socio-ethic, is the Enlightenment is absolutely central?

But either way then, it counterpoints Christianity which is absolutely focussed on the nature and existence of God ... so in my view 'Buddhist Christianity' is one of a philosophical schizophrenia? Either you focus on a diualogue with the Divine (Christianity) or you don't (Buddhism).

Thomas

I said earlier that while I deeply appreciate your knowledge, I question your wisdom. But please remember,
I deeply appreciate your knowledge. That said, here is a wisdom question:
How do you define nirvana? (the goal of buddhism)

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by pattimax

I said earlier that while I deeply appreciate your knowledge, I question your wisdom. But please remember,
I deeply appreciate your knowledge. That said, here is a wisdom question:
How do you define nirvana? (the goal of buddhism)

I meant to address my question to Thomas.

Karen