Angels on earth...

[wil]

In another thread a reference was made to Nathaniel

49 Nathanael answered and said to Him, “Rabbi, You are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!”
50 Jesus answered and said to him, “Because I said to you, ‘I saw you under the fig tree,’ do you believe? You will see greater things than these.” 51 And He said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, hereafter[a] you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man.”

Rereading this scripture made me remember Jacobs dream and what is referred to as Jacobs ladder (actually a staircase in the story), but in his vision he saw angels ascending and descending the staircase. And here to Nathaniel, Jesus refers to 'the angels of G!d ascending and descending'.

My pervasive thought is always angels coming to earth from heaven to assist folks. But both of these passages remind us they are here all the time, by indicating the ascending first.

Any other passages/thought from other religions on this topic??

[mee]

God’s angels were ascending and descending on the ladder, and a representation of Jehovah God was above it. (Ge 28:13)

This ladder with the angels upon it indicates the existence of communication between earth and heaven and that angels minister in an important way between God and those having his approval.

When Jesus said to his disciples, "Most truly I say to you men, You will see heaven opened up and the angels of God ascending and descending to the Son of man," he may have had in mind Jacob’s vision.—Joh 1:51.

[seattlegal]

Wil, you might find the post-Columbian (After Christianity was brought to the Mayan people) Mayan text, Chilam Balam, quite interesting in this respect, especially chapter 11, The Ritual of the Angels.

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Wil, you might find the post-Columbian (After Christianity was brought to the Mayan people) Mayan text, Chilam Balam, quite interesting in this respect, especially chapter 11, The Ritual of the Angels.

I looked at this very quickly. It seems to be more of a cosmology or Creation story than a description of how angels act within the earthly realm.

It seems the kabbalah concerns itself with this. I have some choice passages that I will need to type up.

[wil]

Namaste all,

Yes please, provide some kabbalah passages, I'd love it!

As for the Mayan it does provide some insight placing the angels on earth.

My contemplation is whenever anyone talks about Jacobs ladder (staircase) they always refer to the Angels coming down from heaven, yet the text clearly states up and down and up first.

To me it indicates that they are here, present, active, and (warning sports metaphor) as they head (up) back to the bench, the replacements come (down) on the field.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by wil

Namaste all,

Yes please, provide some kabbalah passages, I'd love it!

As for the Mayan it does provide some insight placing the angels on earth.

My contemplation is whenever anyone talks about Jacobs ladder (staircase) they always refer to the Angels coming down from heaven, yet the text clearly states up and down and up first.
To me it indicates that they are here, present, active, and (warning sports metaphor) as they head (up) back to the bench, the replacements come (down) on the field.

Sorry, wil, if my reason for referring to the Mayans wasn't clear.

Do you think the Chilam Balam is an attempt to place the feathered serpent Quetzalcoatl/Kukulcan (who appears the steps on the pyramid on the equinox) within the Christian context, perhaps? Doesn't Kukulcan on the steps sound similar to angels on Jacob's ladder?

[Tao_Equus]

They were lizards i tell you...LIZARDS!!!!!

[Ciel]

They are the chill factor.

They are the wash of the gentle breeze.

They are here now more than they have ever been.

Because the world is in need of healing.

Before this tme they were in a process of healing themselves.

- c -

[greymare]

they are the paramedics. the doctors, the nurses. the pallative care workers. the researchers, the brave, the rescuers, the lone protester in tianamin square (spelling?) the diggers, the anzacs, the soldiers, the organ donors, .........................my point.......... we all could be angels........

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by greymare

they are the paramedics. the doctors, the nurses. the pallative care workers. the researchers, the brave, the rescuers, the lone protester in tianamin square (spelling?) the diggers, the anzacs, the soldiers, the organ donors, .........................my point.......... we all could be angels........

Good point, greymare.

[Dream]

Originally Posted by Wil

Any other passages/thought from other religions on this topic??

I think the point about the Mayan pyramid is very potent and could be evidence of a previous connection between religions. My thought is that Jesus' statement to Nathaniel was a reference to himself as the obedient sacrifice, and Mayan pyramids are basically gigantic altars. That ascension of angels is involved with sacrifice can be seen in the story of Sampson. Sampson's parents observe an angel ascend in the smoke of a sacrifice.(Judges 13:19-23) The angel ascends in the smoke of the altar to make a point about the sacrifice (not because he needed smoke to ascend on). Key phrases from those verses: "...the flame went up toward heaven from the altar, the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar..." and "Manoah said unto his wife: 'We shall surely die, because we have seen God.' But his wife said unto him: 'If the LORD were pleased to kill us, He would not have received a burnt-offering and a meal-offering at our hand."

Jacob, after dreaming of a ladder with angels ascending and descending immediately builds an altar on the spot and offers burnt offerings. (See the pyramid?) The secret of Jacob's ladder lies in understanding what offerings are for (they are similar to an admission of guilt, but more to it), and Nathaniel understood what Jesus was saying to him about the angels 'ascending upon the Son of Man'. To Nathaniel it meant Jesus would be dying as a sacrifice.

Another famous reference to angels ascending and descending on the ladder is Psalm 68:17-20. In reference to this, Paul suggests that apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers are the angels or gifts which descend and ascend (Ephesians 4:7-12). The idea is repeated in Hebrews 1:13-14 "But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?" The writer makes Jesus more important than Abraham, Moses, and all other prophets by saying this, but note that Sacrifice and ascension are intertwined ideas. The entire ministry (apostles, prophets, etc.) are considered gifts from above that descend 'upon the Son of Man' or ladder to minister unto the saints. Jacob's dream of a ladder, which we are calling the Son of Man, was the dream of the establishment of the house of God through prophets, who preached about sacrifice. Upon Jacob's ladder descend all prophets. Jacob & Abraham understood the image of the ladder (according to Paul Galations 3:8), and the two ladders are actually the same ladder through which all of the house of God is founded. The ladder is a representation of sacrifice.

[seattlegal]

It's interesting how the Mayans ended up abandoning their temples and cities. (Much like what happened in Babel, perhaps?)

I can't say I blame them, though. I'd much rather be a living stone that builds the church (as per greymare's post #9 above) than a baked brick that builds a tower.

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Doesn't Kukulcan on the steps sound similar to angels on Jacob's ladder?

Could be.

It seems the purpose of the stairs on the Mayan pyramids was to get the priest up little higher and, hence, closer to the gods to facilitate a spiritual schmooze. If that's all it is, the stairs have nothing to with angels ascending-descending.

There are quite a few different views on the symbolic meaning of Jacob's ladder. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob's_Ladder

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by greymare

they are the paramedics. the doctors, the nurses. the pallative care workers. the researchers, the brave, the rescuers, the lone protester in tianamin square (spelling?) the diggers, the anzacs, the soldiers, the organ donors, .........................my point.......... we all could be angels........

According to Kabbalic writings, humans create angels -- including evil ones. Adam and Eve are depicted as having created mutliple demons.

[greymare]

How was this supposed to happen.? (multiple demons, thing?)