Angels

[Postmaster]

These beings are Gods messengers, helpers, God himself? But once upon a time they were once Pagan Babylonian Gods. Zoroaster introduced them back in his faith as Angels, helpers of God. From what I read off a site once.

[Popeyesays]

Angels are rich subjects, and rich subjects have many levels of meaning. Is there just ONE kind of angel? I doubt it. If there is more than one meaning for 'angel' does that eradicate any meaningful definition? What do you mean by 'angel'? And how does that relate to what Zarathustra or Baha`u'llah may have meant by the term?

A little amplification would be helpful.

Regards,
Scott

[Postmaster]

Is anyone aware of the history of angels? If what I say is true about them originally being worshipped as pagan Gods, then I guess it’s clear to see the progression in religion as explained by the Baha'i faith.

I think a cynical version of progressive revelation is more believable. What I've noticed is, every religion is romanticised to what it originally was.

[arthra]

Abdul-Baha defined "angels" in the following way:

"By angels is meant the divine confirmations and heavenly powers. Angels are also those holy souls who have severed attachment to the earthly world, who are free from the fetters of self and passion and who have attached their hearts to the divine realm and the merciful kingdom. They are of the kingdom, heavenly; they are of the merciful One, divine. They are the manifestations of the divine grace and the dawns of spiritual bounty."

[BruceDLimber]

Hi again, Postmaster! :-)

In the Baha'i scriptures, there's also this:

86

“And now, concerning His words: ‘And He shall send His angels...’ By ‘angels is meant those who, reinforced by the power of the spirit, have consumed, with the fire of the love of God, all human traits and limitations, and have clothed themselves with the attributes of the most exalted Beings….”

-- The Book of Certitude, pp. 78-79.


Thus angels are people who have become completely spiritual!

Best,

Bruce

[Thomas]

Thus angels are people who have become completely spiritual!

This, then, is a view unique to Abdul-Baha, it's certainly not part of the Judeo/Christian/Moslem traditions.

Hebraic angelology derived from their dialogue with polytheism, and as there is only one God for the Jews, so the 'gods' of polytheism were 'demoted' from gods to angels – the only way the Jews could acknowledge such phenomena without making a complete nonsense of their beliefs.

For the Jews angels are messengers of the Divine, sometimes 'authorised' to act with Power under their own authority. For the Christians they are intelligences – but also for the Christians, angels are 'lower' than human in their potential and possibility; higher in their state of actuality.

Thus, in the Christian Cosmos, those who have become 'completely spiritual' become 'fully human' – not angelic.

The common Western notion of angels has been heavily influenced by the Romantic Movement of the 18th century – a revolt against Enlightenment and Industrialisation – and as such it is largely a 'fiction' which has caught on in the popular imagination.

Thomas

[arthra]

Hello Thomas!

Welcome to the Baha'i Board and thanks for your post!

Thomas wrote:

This, then, is a view unique to Abdul-Baha, it's certainly not part of the Judeo/Christian/Moslem traditions.

My comment:

Traditions are really not what the Baha'i Faith is about although there are strong resemblances to Islam. You will find references in the Baha'i Writings to the "Concourse on High" which to me resembles the "Cloud of Witnesses" mentioned in scripture and the "Maid of Heaven" which is a representation for us of the Holy Spirit.

I give some examples from the Writings:

Again from Abdul-Baha:

"Whensoever holy souls, drawing on the powers of heaven, shall arise with such qualities of the spirit, and march in unison, rank on rank, every one of those souls will be even as one thousand, and the surging waves of that mighty ocean will be even as the battalions of the Concourse on high."

Here is a reference to the Maid of Heaven from the Gleanings of Baha'u'llah:

"Say: Step out of Thy holy chamber, O Maid of Heaven, inmate of the Exalted Paradise! Drape thyself in whatever manner pleaseth Thee in the silken Vesture of Immortality, and put on, in the name of the All-Glorious, the broidered Robe of Light. Hear, then, the sweet, the wondrous accent of the Voice that cometh from the Throne of Thy Lord, the Inaccessible, the Most High. Unveil Thy face, and manifest the beauty of the black-eyed Damsel, and suffer not the servants of God to be deprived of the light of Thy shining countenance."

[dauer]

Originally Posted by Thomas

but also for the Christians, angels are 'lower' than human in their potential and possibility; higher in their state of actuality.

This is true of Judaism too. There is an analogy made of angels as standing whereas humans are walking. It is a little different in Judaism because here it is seen that they are limited by their lack of free will, while humans, having free will, are able to continue to grow and develop.

Dauer

[arthra]

Here are some more references to angels from the Baha'i Writings:

“Now is the time for you to divest yourselves of the garment of attachment to this world that perisheth, to be wholly severed from the physical world, become heavenly angels, and travel to these countries. I swear by Him besides Whom there is none other God that each one of you will become an Isráfíl of Life, and will blow the Breath of Life into the souls of others.”

- Baha'u'llah

By heavenly armies those souls are intended who are entirely freed from the human world, transformed into celestial spirits and have become divine angels. Such souls are the rays of the Sun of Reality who will illumine all the continents. Each one is holding in his hand a trumpet, blowing the breath of life over all the regions. They are delivered from human qualities and the defects of the world of nature, are characterized with the characteristics of God, and are attracted with the fragrances of the Merciful.

- Abdul-Baha

[BruceDLimber]

[quote=Thomas;84430This, then, is a view unique to Abdul-Baha, it's certainly not part of the Judeo/Christian/Moslem traditions.[/quote]

No problem whatever: Progressive Revelation is a continual process of clarification of earlier concepts. . . .

Best, :-)

Bruce

[flowperson]

Hello all:

I think it boils down to the fact that angels may appear to be people, but their "being" is really based on a paradigm of divinity. They seem to come from elsewhere, outside of our realities to tell or show us something(s) that we need. I would agree with the messenger role above any other, mostly based upon some personal experiences that I and my children have had.

At the risk of providing secular artistic examples of my beliefs regarding angels, I would suggest that viewing two films might best demonstrate just what I'm getting at here. The first is an older film that is very popular in America at this season, It's a Wonderful Life. The second is more contemporary but has just as powerful a message for us to learn IMO, City of Angels.

This second film should be seen several times as it conveys its messages through subtle imageries, along with an excellent story line. If you watch it I would be interested in your opinion regarding what the angels in the libraries, and the angels watching the sun setting into the Pacific Ocean are really up to

peace...flow....

[China Cat Sunflower]

Angels and Sailors

Angels and sailors
Rich girls
Backyard fences
Tents

Dreams watching each other narrowly
Soft luxuriant cars
Girls in garages, stripped
Out to get liquor and clothes
Half gallons of wine and six-packs of beer
Jumped, humped, born to suffer
Made to undress in the wilderness.

I will never treat you mean
Never start no kind of scene
Ill tell you every place and person that Ive been.

Always a playground instructor, never a killer
Always a bridesmaid on the verge of fame or over
He maneuvered two girls into his hotel room
One a friend, the other, the young one, a newer stranger
Vaguely mexican or puerto rican
Poor boys thighs and buttock scarred by a fathers belt
Shes trying to rise
Story of her boyfriend, of teenage stoned death games
Handsome lad, dead in a car
Confusion
No connections
Come ere
I love you
Peace on earth
Will you die for me?
Eat me
This way
The end

Ill always be true
Never go out, sneaking out on you, babe
If youll only show me far arden again.

Im surprised you could get it up
He whips her lightly, sardonically, with belt
Havent I been through enough? she asks
Now dressed and leaving
The spanish girl begins to bleed
She says her period
Its catholic heaven
I have an ancient indian crucifix around my neck
My chest is hard and brown
Lying on stained, wretched sheets with a bleeding virgin
We could plan a murder
Or start a religion.

Jim Morrison

[Ciel]

China,

Why did you feel to post your "Angels and Sailors"?

Very strange obscure mentality.

Code of conduct aberation on more than one level.

- c -

[Thomas]

Hi Flow -

Haven't seen it, although I have the Wim Wenders original, which I've watched a few times: 'Wings of Desire' ... and the subsequent 'Faraway, so close' ... wonderful films ... and each a counterpoint to the other ... and both meditations on the nature of good and evil, spirit and flesh...

Thomas

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by Ciel

China,

Why did you feel to post your "Angels and Sailors"?

Very strange obscure mentality.

Code of conduct aberation on more than one level.

- c -

Well, it had something to do with angels! I free associate a lot, which gives me that "very strange obscure mentality of which you speak. Didn't you enjoy it?

Chris