And the Whole Earth Was of One Language

[alexa]

Hello Juan,

It's not necessary to apology. I understand you perfectly and I don't envy you in this moment. Well, maybe I'll envy you next week, when finals will be over.

My flight is this week, so I wish you a Merry Christmas and A Happy New Year !

I'll be back in January. Get some rest meanwhile, as I'm eager to see your comments on this thread.

Best regards,

Alexa

[alexa]

Knock, knock Juan ! Had some time to read the thread ?

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by alexa

Knock, knock Juan ! Had some time to read the thread ?

Oh my, hello! Kindest Regards, Alexa!

Just got my computer back up running. I have been following along pretty well lurking in the background, I just haven't had time at home to answer anybody. And then I finally got the chance to answer back, and my machine died! Ahhh!

I just can't bring myself to part with my five year old machine. I feel blessed to have even it, and I don't want to afford a new one, at least not just yet. I have other priorities for my paycheck.

I hope all is well with you and yours.

I haven't spent any time recently on the subject of the development of the languages, but it seems to me the Western languages developed from some form of sanskrit, which I think is a root of the East Indian language. The Eastern languages; Chinese, Japanese, Korean and others, had a common beginning, but I am not certain the relation with sanskrit. The Chinese and other oriental languages are written pictographically, by my understanding. A good analogy would be Egyptian, in that each symbol represents a great deal more than an isolated sound. Instead of writing alphabetically, oriental languages kind of draw a picture. I have heard of many Chinese characters that actually resemble, in an indoctrinated way, what it is they represent. For example (which may be inaccurate and wide open to correction please by someone more knowledgeable), the word "house" might be represented by a symbol that looks to the initiated like a house. I seem to recall hearing somewhere that the Chinese word for something like "discord" or "strife", was a roof with two women underneath! (one of those amusing but true stories)

Again, I do not know this to be proper, and I haven't spent a great deal of time with any specific language. Alphabetical languages have some unusual variations as well. One interesting language is Ogham, a primitive form of written Irish.

Of course, a discussion of symbolic language could also include mathematics. My understanding is that that too, developed in Mesopotamia, along with star gazing (astronomy) and calender making.

[alexa]

Hello juantoo3 !

It's good to have you back. Thanks. My family is all right. I hope yours, too.
How do you feel as a graduate ? Any thoughts to study something else in the future ?

I didn't spend much time for this thread either. I was waiting for you to see which direction would be more interesting to take.

I've found a site of languages ressources. Very interesting and instructive. You can find on it informations regarding extinct languages, those on imminent danger to become extinct, the ancient one, contructed languages and language families. They also provide dictionaries, writing systems, etc.

http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/linguist/images/index_r1_c1.gif


I'm afraid that if we try to go through all the languages development (around 7000 as per linguists) we need the entire life and still have to live the research unfinished. This is a huge data base. Maybe we can look only a few of the ancient and extinct languages. There are 226 included :

http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/linguist/forms/langs/GetListOfAncientLgs.html

A lot of them were classified as Old (following by French, English, Aramaic, Chinese, etc). Others can be recognised by their name : Akkadian, Ammonite, Edomite, Hittite, Moabite, Old Aramaic, etc.

If we analyse the diversity of all these languages, can we really accept that the Whole Earth was of One Language ? (see post 1)

I'll wait for your feed-back.

Best regards,

Alexa

P.S. you are not the only one with computers problems lately. And I'm not talking about myself this time.

[Bandit]

If we analyse the diversity of all these languages, can we really accept that the Whole Earth was of One Language ? (see post 1)

I have read the thread twice. Can I join in this for a little bit?

I want to read more of the material posted here and I have a couple of things.
First I would have to ask Why can't we accept that the earth was of one language? reguardless of how complex each language is? Or am I seeing this as a different discussion as in just trying to figure out where each language came from?

I am thinking Noah and the seven landed right there in Turkey, so there is the start. Then the tower of Babylon, well that was not going to fly. I have always believed God literally confounded the one language to make it so it was impossible for them to communicate in building this tower.

I also say this because there are many places where God used speech, language, tongues for different purposes.

Is that where this is coming from?


11:4And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. 11:5And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. 11:6And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
11:7Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
11:8So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
11:9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth. "confound": 1101 balal baw-lal' a primitive root; to overflow (specifically with oil.); by implication, to mix; also (denominatively from 1098) to fodder:--anoint, confound, X fade, mingle, mix (self), give provender, temper.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Bandit, and welcome to CR!

Originally Posted by Bandit

Can I join in this for a little bit?

By all means, the more, the merrier!

First I would have to ask Why can't we accept that the earth was of one language? reguardless of how complex each language is? Or am I seeing this as a different discussion as in just trying to figure out where each language came from?

I have no problem accepting the factual evidence. But blind belief without question is, well, unwise.

This thread is in reality a continuation of a previous thread, "morality in evolution." Believe it or not, we are on the same side. The difference between us is blind acceptance.(*please excuse, absolutely no slight intended*) If indeed the truth is that the earth was of one language at a point in time, shouldn't the evidence indicate that that is precisely what happened? The data must be present if the fact occurred.

It is better, as a scholar don't you think, to look to where the evidence leads, rather than beginning with a presumption and interpreting all data skewed toward that presumption? God doesn't mind being questioned, if you will, if your heart and mind are pointed in the correct direction.

I am thinking Noah and the seven landed right there in Turkey, so there is the start. Then the tower of Babylon, well that was not going to fly. I have always believed God literally confounded the one language to make it so it was impossible for them to communicate in building this tower.

"Right there in Turkey" is an interesting place unto itself, Ararat being at the geopolitical congruence of three regional powers: Turkey, Russia and Iran. Babylon, the city and tower, are "just" south in Iraq, the land of Abraham is Ur of the Chaldees, in Iraq. This area of Iraq (the fertile crescent, including Baghdad and Ur) is the birthplace of civilization, warfare was first learned, fortresses were first built, agriculture was developed, textiles were developed, math was developed, astronomy was developed. The Bible tells us these things, somewhat metaphorically, but it is all supported by archeology as well. The truth is supported by other truth, which means in this case that fact is supported by fact.

The Tower of Babel is known to exist, though archeology I am familiar with doesn't know a great deal about it, the who, what, why, etc. That is one place the Bible does not get a great deal of direct outside support.

If indeed the languages do all have a common root, then it is fair to presume that civilized modern humans have a common ancestry, much closer than the hundred thousand or so years going back to whatever proto-sapiens we presumably derived from. Were Adam and Eve Cro-Magnon? Neandertal? Or even earlier? Or, *ahem*, later? And when exactly did humanity learn to think, that is, when did Adam first eat of the tree of knowledge?

I also say this because there are many places where God used speech, language, tongues for different purposes.

Certainly, according to tradition.

How did people communicate before Adam and Eve? Why do we have cave paintings dating conservatively from ten thousand years ago, some thought to be as much as twenty plus thousand years ago, which I think would place them at the cusp of the sunset of the Neandertal. And what about Cro-Magnon and Neandertal being able to interbreed? What about bone flutes dating even much earlier still? Did humans teach themselves music before they learned to speak? What place do fire, tools and weapons have in the Genesis story?

Yes, the "word" has many connotations. Some attach a spiritual meaning to it, and that is fine in that context. But context is crucial to understanding, and in this context we are speaking of the mechanics of physical language among humans.

Is that where this is coming from?

I hope that helps clear any confusion you may have had. If not, let me know, and I will do my best to clarify what it is I mean.

If you would like, might I suggest going through the verses you have quoted here, and supporting with hard evidence, or at least scholarly speculation based on archeological or anthropological evidence.

Such as perhaps:
11:4And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
We know the Tower exists. We know its position in Iraq. Was this the act of one Semitic tribe among many human tribes that somehow escaped the deluge in other parts of the world? Or do all tribes of people stem from this one Semitic tribe? I realize the tradition taught in the modern Christian faith. What is the genetic reality, the hard evidentiary fact of the matter? Does it agree with the Bible? Or not?

I might add, that reverting to the flood of Noah automatically without evidencial support is appealing to authority, which a scholar cannot do (unless all likeminded scholars appeal to the same authority, which could just as easily be called blind faith or dogma). In an open forum such as this, a student may not recognize the authority you call upon. So, if you wish to contribute, which I wholeheartedly encourage please, be certain to support your statements with more than the Bible alone.

Only because in my experience the Flood of Noah is a really tough sell from a scholarship point, and because of a statement made in an earlier discussion by Alexa, did she and I decide to begin with the dividing of the languages, because there is evidenciary fact, and to my knowledge it hasn't been explored very deeply among scholars in making certain connections.

I believe in God. But I cannot let the traditions I have been taught color my neutral exploration of the subject. Either it was, or it wasn't, or somewhere in between, the evidence will tell. Unless one is afraid to seek the truth?

I hope I have not come across too heavy. I have been reading your posts elsewhere, and I am impressed. I hope you will participate here as well, although I don't get to as often as I used to.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Alexa!

Originally Posted by alexa

It's good to have you back.

Thanks. It's nice to be back, but as you can see, not nearly as often.

My family is all right. I hope yours, too.

Everyone here is fine, thank you for asking.

How do you feel as a graduate ? Any thoughts to study something else in the future ?

Oh my, I had no idea my degree would be such a great thing. I am taking an extended break for the moment, but I intend to pick a university for a Master's in Hospital Administration, possibly for the summer semester. Part time though, I'm burnt.

I didn't spend much time for this thread either. I was waiting for you to see which direction would be more interesting to take.

Well, I'm pleased Bandit joined us, I think he brought out some good discussion points if they can be kept in context and developed. Like with so very many myths, there is usually some kernal of truth. I think we are looking for those kernals.

I've found a site of languages ressources. Very interesting and instructive. You can find on it informations regarding extinct languages, those on imminent danger to become extinct, the ancient one, contructed languages and language families. They also provide dictionaries, writing systems, etc.

Thank you for the links. One didn't open for me, I think the security at work. But I printed the other and haven't had a lot of time to go through it yet. From what I have seen, a lot of the languages can be overlooked because they are irrelevent to our discussion, they are too young, too obscure, or too vague. Even in keeping to the main language families we have sufficient to establish a basic framework. So the "dead" languages are mostly a, ummmm, dead end. Unless they are old enough and pertinent to the initial expansion out of Sumaria.

What we need for this would be a linguist versed in the primitive languages, at least enough to walk us through the earliest known beginnings.

If we analyse the diversity of all these languages, can we really accept that the Whole Earth was of One Language ? (see post 1)

Well, without the analysis we can't really say, can we? At this point, not having done the homework and relying on what I recall from earlier studies, several of the major language families have a common ancestry, the major problem being the oriental languages and whether or not it can be shown they too are related at some very early time. Pictographic languages are very different from alphabetical languages, but alphabetical languages began as pictographic languages.

And while it isn't directly related to the dispersion of the languages, Bandit hit on some other supporting (or not) directions to look, such as how closely we are related genetically, and in relation to other animals. How has humanity dispersed through the continents (open to conjecture)? What about technological developments that coexisted with the development of language; fire, tools, weapons, music, religion?

Until next time,

[Bandit]

If indeed the languages do all have a common root, then it is fair to presume that civilized modern humans have a common ancestry, much closer than the hundred thousand or so years going back to whatever proto-sapiens we presumably derived from. Were Adam and Eve Cro-Magnon? Neandertal? Or even earlier? Or, *ahem*, later? And when exactly did humanity learn to think, that is, when did Adam first eat of the tree of knowledge?

Quote:
I also say this because there are many places where God used speech, language, tongues for different purposes.

Certainly, according to tradition.

How did people communicate before Adam and Eve? Why do we have cave paintings dating conservatively from ten thousand years ago, some thought to be as much as twenty plus thousand years ago, which I think would place them at the cusp of the sunset of the Neandertal. And what about Cro-Magnon and Neandertal being able to interbreed? What about bone flutes dating even much earlier still? Did humans teach themselves music before they learned to speak? What place do fire, tools and weapons have in the Genesis story?

Yes, the "word" has many connotations. Some attach a spiritual meaning to it, and that is fine in that context. But context is crucial to understanding, and in this context we are speaking of the mechanics of physical language among humans.

Quote:
Is that where this is coming from?

I hope that helps clear any confusion you may have had. If not, let me know, and I will do my best to clarify what it is I mean.

Ok. You did clear up the thread for me. I will see what I can find on tools, fire and weapons in Genises. LOL

You have a lot of questions, more than I can ever answer for sure. You will be searching this for a long time and Neandertal-Cro-Magnon is out of my league. This a life long study but I am glad someone is doing it especially for the languages.

How do we know for sure that maybe, something extraordinary (bigger than the flood) happened to earth that wiped out everything that could have lived prior to Adam and Eve? Is it possible that such an event could throw off the estimated ages of the remains they find, by the use of the tools they use to prove age? Just making you think.

I really only have experience in hearing dialects and different languages from a young age, then hearing them later and being around them especially Hatian and Arab. I do believe there is a hidden mystery behind what you are looking for. I don't think what I have to share is going to help much. Sorry.
Good luck and have fun. If I get the chance to pop in with some 'evidence' I will surely do it. I wish everyone the best.

For now this is all I have and it is old news.
Analysis of the skeletal remains of a four-year-old child buried in a Portuguese rock-shelter 25,000 to 24,500 years ago has yielded startling evidence that early modern humans and Neandertals may have interbred. While the boy's prominent chin, tooth size, and pelvic measurements marked him as a Cro-Magnon, or fully modern human, his stocky body and short legs indicate Neandertal heritage, says Erik Trinkaus, a paleoanthropologist at Washington University in St. Louis. Interbreeding could answer the vexed question of the fate of the Neandertals, the last of whom disappeared from the Iberian Peninsula 28,000 years ago.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Bandit!

Thank you for your post, and most especially the "hybrid" child photo, I knew of the existence, but had not seen the photo.

Originally Posted by Bandit

You have a lot of questions, more than I can ever answer for sure. You will be searching this for a long time and Neandertal-Cro-Magnon is out of my league. This a life long study but I am glad someone is doing it especially for the languages.

Thanks, I know its gonna take a while, but I've already invested a bit of effort to this point. I guess its a hobby, a labor of love.

How do we know for sure that maybe, something extraordinary (bigger than the flood) happened to earth that wiped out everything that could have lived prior to Adam and Eve? Is it possible that such an event could throw off the estimated ages of the remains they find, by the use of the tools they use to prove age? Just making you think.

Well, one source I read explained a South American Native tradition that the world had been destroyed 7 times. And the meteor in the Yucatan thing that wiped out the dinosaurs...(there is a lot of discussion in this forum in different places over the past year that cover these things and a whole lot more). But always there is a remnant that continues on. Regarding the Flood of Noah however, the geologic evidence seems to indicate a more regional flood. "The whole world" was the great plain they had never been beyond. The peoples who lived elsewhere (6th day creation) were not as seriously affected, although I suspect and can't prove as of yet, that there was a great deal of tectonic movement. As for Adam and Eve, I am still guessing. Various places for Eden are proposed by differing regional customs, but the seeming most valid to me at this point is Aden, in the country of Yemen.

As for the tools, I had that discussion earlier with a very knowledgeable lady who corrected some of the misinformation I had on the subject. It makes for some pretty good reading, I think. I forget exactly where, but if there's a thread about evolution, especially with a contrast with religion, I've posted. In short, if the researchers are aware of possible contaminants, they adjust. And I wasn't aware that samples are cross checked with independent labs.

I do believe there is a hidden mystery behind what you are looking for.

I do too, and I wonder why it is a mystery, or why it needs to be a mystery.

Good luck and have fun. If I get the chance to pop in with some 'evidence' I will surely do it. I wish everyone the best.

Thanks, and by all means please do.

[juantoo3]

From what I have seen, a lot of the languages can be overlooked because they are irrelevent to our discussion, they are too young, too obscure, or too vague. Even in keeping to the main language families we have sufficient to establish a basic framework. So the "dead" languages are mostly a, ummmm, dead end. Unless they are old enough and pertinent to the initial expansion out of Sumaria.

What we need for this would be a linguist versed in the primitive languages, at least enough to walk us through the earliest known beginnings.

OK, I had a chance to look over the list I printed out, and some things are getting refreshed in my mind, and other things are starting to make sense. The list confirms that Sumerian is the first known written language, which sources I recall from textbooks (like the humanities book I'm almost through with) dates from the bronze age at the dawn of agriculture. The list also notes a few other bronze age languages, including a pre-celt language called sorothapic. One place on the list noted two main language families, "indo-european" (which I think is the sanskrit I mentioned), and "non indo-european." If I understand correctly, non indo-european may actually be also non related to each other. Some appear to be, others appear not to be. And if I read it correctly, the oriental languages fall here, although I was surprised to learn that not all non indo-european languages became oriental languages.

Some other interesting side studies are the relations between the different celtic languages. And how aramaic and canaanitic languages feed each other, and interrelate with persian and iranian languages. Also interesting is how korean seems to be surrounded, yet still remains distinct from other oriental languages. Sadly, there is little to note Africa, except a Sudanese language I can't seem to find on the list again, and ancient Egypt.

Language is about the movement of peoples. If a people grows, so does their language. Living languages grow, and morph, and absorb. Science uses dead languages, Latin and Greek, because these languages do not change any longer. But modern English, French, Spanish, German, Dutch are constantly changing as old words gain new meaning, and new words are developed or adopted. It was the same during the bronze and iron age, languages morphed, unless and until they were absorbed or wiped out. As people conquered or fell victim to conquerers, their language followed them and moved with them across continents.

So, if the world was at one time of one language, what language would that be? Sumerian? Akkadian? And/or did the oriental languages branch off from here as well, or were they already in existence? What ramifications does this have to the fabled Tower?

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Language is about the movement of peoples. If a people grows, so does their language. Living languages grow, and morph, and absorb. Science uses dead languages, Latin and Greek, because these languages do not change any longer. But modern English, French, Spanish, German, Dutch are constantly changing as old words gain new meaning, and new words are developed or adopted. It was the same during the bronze and iron age, languages morphed, unless and until they were absorbed or wiped out. As people conquered or fell victim to conquerers, their language followed them and moved with them across continents.

So, if the world was at one time of one language, what language would that be? Sumerian? Akkadian? And/or did the oriental languages branch off from here as well, or were they already in existence? What ramifications does this have to the fabled Tower?

That seems like a good approach. Written language is going to require more rules than a spoken language. Sound and pronunciation is what we are seeing that was altered there in Genises, not necessarily the pictures or symbols they used. Just a thought.

Beside, we really only have to go back less than 4,000 years or 6,000 if we want to.
I also have the same consideration you do with the flood but more likely because it would have to only cover the areas that it was supposed to cover.

The only thing that gets me with most of the findings today is we all know there is a 'missing link', so that link may have nothing to do with what we want know anyway. Another thought.
The other thing that bothers me with the evidence (s) and carbon dating, is, it is all summed up to maybe, possibly, argumentively, perhaps, again perhaps, hopefully (but dont hold your breath) and supposedly.

So from that, if you allow me play the adversary a little bit and I can make it fun for us. If that is ok

IOW, you guys do all the work and I will just be there smiling.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Bandit!

Thank you for your post.

Originally Posted by Bandit

That seems like a good approach. Written language is going to require more rules than a spoken language. Sound and pronunciation is what we are seeing that was altered there in Genises, not necessarily the pictures or symbols they used. Just a thought.

Actually, it is from the development of the Hebrew language that I draw the conclusion that alphabetical languages began pictographically. I understand the Sumerian cuneiform to be constructed similarly, and there are enough tablets to demonstrate the development of that language as well. The Hebrew alphabetical symbols originally represented specific things. Off the top of my head I forget now, but it seems to me the first two letters, as example, aleph and bet, were represented by a house and an ox (I forget which is which at this moment). Also, hebrew letters were used to count numbers originally, there were no numerals. From this we can say that the symbols did not change drastically, but by the time the earliest manuscripts that became the Bible were composed, the symbology had developed into a written form of the spoken word. Traditionally, this would have been at the time of Moses during the wandering, but it is arguable as to exactly when in history this would have taken place. By my understanding, and there are people here far more versed than I, the Old Testament was consolidated during Solomon's time into more or less the form we know today, although the Jewish Bible keeps the books in a different organizational order than the Christian Bible does.

Beside, we really only have to go back less than 4,000 years or 6,000 if we want to.

Actually, the advent of agriculture, if I remember what I looked into a couple of months ago, was about 4000 BC, or about 6 thousand years ago. 2000BC would place us at the tail end of the bronze age going into the iron age. There was a concern I voiced a few months back about how the pyramids could be built with copper and bronze tools. We usually hear of the massive size of the stones, which is no small feat in itself. But those massive blocks were cut and polished by and with copper and bronze tools. Now, some of the blocks were limestone, relatively soft and easy to cut and shape. But a couple of sources say that granite was used extensively. Now, granite is difficult to work under the best conditions with modern tools. I still fail to see how granite blocks of such massive size could be cut and shaped with copper and bronze tools, the tools are too soft. About only going back 6000 years, that would be placing self defeating limits on the study. The 6th day creation was around and well, and the movements of such peoples are not to be lightly dismissed as for their interactions with the people of the book. If you please, salvation has been offered to all, including the 6th day creation.

I also have the same consideration you do with the flood but more likely because it would have to only cover the areas that it was supposed to cover.

Ah, whether or not the flood was fore-ordained. Well, I'm not trying to read God's mind. I'm only trying to understand what has passed, in order to better understand what is to come. As Solomon said, "there's nothing new under the sun." I have said I believe in God, but I also know I cannot prove God. The proof I have is personal, and insufficient to persuade another who has not had the same encounters or experiences. The academic argument about the existence of God is fun, but futile. The best I can hope for is circumstantial evidence.

The only thing that gets me with most of the findings today is we all know there is a 'missing link', so that link may have nothing to do with what we want know anyway.

Well, what do you, personally, want to know? I am not interested in validating or vindicating my personal biases. I want to know the factual truth, what really happened. Not what a collection of greedy, self-serving, self-righteous political types have polluted, confounded and twisted into a series of amusing but questionable myths over the course of several thousand years into a dogma that is force fed by social stigma into a brain wash attempt to pass fantasy for reality. I am looking for the kernal of truth behind the cloud of myth and politics. When and where that agrees with the Bible, well and good. When and where it disagrees, I wish to know that too. I do think there were a lot of well intended people who were involved in composing the scriptures, and there are very valuable lessons conveyed within. It is what has come about since then, historically, that concerns me.

The other thing that bothers me with the evidence (s) and carbon dating, is, it is all summed up to maybe, possibly, argumentively, perhaps, again perhaps, hopefully (but dont hold your breath) and supposedly.

Ummm, supposedly what?

So from that, if you allow me play the adversary a little bit and I can make it fun for us. If that is ok

By all means, join the fun!

[Bandit]

Hi juantoo3

My dad had theory on the pyramids and I am seeing him soon so I will ask him about that again.
The reason I suggested staying in the 6000 mark is because that is the time frame of the verse in Genises. There could have been and probably was, many languages before Babylon but I am seeing that particular TIME as supposed after the flood, as being one language.
But sure we can go back millions of years too. LOL

Quote:

The other thing that bothers me with the evidence (s) and carbon dating, is, it is all summed up to maybe, possibly, argumentively, perhaps, again perhaps, hopefully (but dont hold your breath) and supposedly.

Ummm, supposedly what?

And what I mean by this is not what I say about it, but what the scientists say. Every article and commentary I read or any News and documentaries THEY conclude maybe, possibly, perhaps...
So it does not really move me personally as it would the person who finds it. That does not mean I have a disinterest in it.

Well, what do you, personally, want to know? I am not interested in validating or vindicating my personal biases. I want to know the factual truth, what really happened. Not what a collection of greedy, self-serving, self-righteous political types have polluted, confounded and twisted into a series of amusing but questionable myths over the course of several thousand years into a dogma that is force fed by social stigma into a brain wash attempt to pass fantasy for reality. I am looking for the kernal of truth behind the cloud of myth and politics. When and where that agrees with the Bible, well and good. When and where it disagrees, I wish to know that too. I do think there were a lot of well intended people who were involved in composing the scriptures, and there are very valuable lessons conveyed within. It is what has come about since then, historically, that concerns me.

I dont want to know anything particular about it. I am enjoying seeing what you and the others want to find out about it. I see you are on target with (the mess of messes in politics, fantasy and dogma) and I am right there with you on it.
Sure, I would love to see the ark and chariots and all of that. If only my life span would allow. We can only pass down what we have and leave it up to the next generations. I do find it interesting that the last 20 years especially there has been enormous attention paid to the bible to try and figure things out. Where the centuries passed was about putting the bible together.
That is probably what you are seeing also.?.

The 6th day creation was around and well, and the movements of such peoples are not to be lightly dismissed as for their interactions with the people of the book. If you please, salvation has been offered to all, including the 6th day creation.

I am not sure what you mean by this.

See ya soon, gotta get back to the work desk.

[Basstian]

I was looking outside the Bible for evidence of one language
I found this tid bit not sure as to its accuracy but wanted to add it to the thread
In c. 670 BC Nebuchadnezzar wrote, A former king built [the Temple of the Seven Lights of the Earth ], but he did not complete its head. Since a remote time, people had abandoned it, without order expressing their words. Since that time earthquakes and lightning had dispersed its sun-dried clay; the bricks of the casing had split, and the earth of the interior had been scattered in heaps. Merodach, the great lord, excited my mind to repair this building. I did not change the site, nor did I take away the foundation stone ? as it had been in former times. so I founded it, I made it; as it had been in ancient days, I so exalted the summit.

I put that line in Bold if that is true it supports the bible strory of the tower of babel

Peace

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Bandit!
Thank you for your post.

Originally Posted by Bandit

My dad had theory on the pyramids and I am seeing him soon so I will ask him about that again.

I'd love to hear it.

The reason I suggested staying in the 6000 mark is because that is the time frame of the verse in Genises. There could have been and probably was, many languages before Babylon but I am seeing that particular TIME as supposed after the flood, as being one language.

Well, the thing that strikes me is the exponential growth in knowledge and intellectual capacity about 6000 years ago, specifically the advent of agriculture. When is it said that God planted a garden? does Eden date only to about 6000 years ago, but there was a creation already here? Look at the days of creation in Genesis. (From memory, so subject to correction) The sixth day creation included human, male and female created He them, Adam (without the article). And it was very good, (emphasis mine quoting the text). The seventh day God rested. The eighth day, God created ha-Adam, the man Adam (with the article). I am no linguist, but I am relating teaching from a linguist. Considering that the word used to denote "day", (by my understanding and I am being lazy not looking it up), also means "time." How long is a day to God? And wasn't ha-Adam created to tend a garden?

There was only one language in the plain of Shinar (as I recall), that area became Sumeria. Akkad was also a brief power in the region in Biblical times. And sanskrit, as I recall, came out of there, the fertile crescent, Babylon. Sanskrit is the mother tongue to about half of the world's languages I would guess, not having considered well enough the native tongues of the new world and africa. These are the Indo-European languages, I would guess, and I would appreciate learned correction if not.

But sure we can go back millions of years too. LOL

eh, there's a few of those discussions around here someplace. But the near term pre-history is a scarce bird. Some interesting stuff there though, like the different cave paintings they've found since Lasceaux (sp?). In the last thirty or so years there have been quite a number of cave paintings turn up. The cave paintings seem to me to have been a form of written language. The bone flute is interesting, the statuette they call "Venus of Willendorf", named for where she was found, the stone ball formed with a geometric pattern deliberately inscribed dated from way back, they still can only guess about fire but humans were making fire with implements 25 thousand or so years ago. Already thinking, already had tools and weapons, already had religion, already had a social system. To keep things in perspective, wasn't the end of the ice age about 10thousand years ago, or was that BC?

The body they found in the Alps a couple of years back was interesting, dated from before agriculture he was presumed to be "hunter-gatherer." But he turned out to be pretty much vegetarian.

Neandertal is presumed to have died out, as I recall, 25-35 thousand years ago, but this hybrid child turns up, what did the link say...something like 20 thousand, meaning Neandertal might well have survived much later than is currently thought, they just haven't found anything they're talking about. How this child figures into our direct discussion, I haven't got a clue, it may mean nothing.

What did the knowlege of good and evil consist of? What eyes were opened to Adam and Eve? What mental corridors were opened, or perhaps awakened? What marks the distinct transition between neolithic and modern humans? At about 6000 years ago?

And what I mean by this is not what I say about it, but what the scientists say. Every article and commentary I read or any News and documentaries THEY conclude maybe, possibly, perhaps...
So it does not really move me personally as it would the person who finds it. That does not mean I have a disinterest in it.

OK. I think you might find I have a somewhat different view, I automatically question anybody who claims they "know," anything. Anyone can misinterpret, even when the facts happen right in front of them.

I do find it interesting that the last 20 years especially there has been enormous attention paid to the bible to try and figure things out. Where the centuries passed was about putting the bible together.
That is probably what you are seeing also.?.

Yeah, but I'm not quite sure what I see just yet.