Alternate Realities/Alternate Universes

[Quahom1]

According to Christian teachings...

God is a God of the past, present and future (omnipresent)

God is also a US Marine (omnipotent) - [a joke to keep it light]

So, if it is true that God is omnipresent, and omnipotent, then the first part indicates that there are at least three planes of existense for us in this life. Unlike man, God is non-linear, in terms of time. And defacto three universes exist, or three versions of one universe.

Now does that infir time being set, and stages changing (universes), or time changes and the universe is set...or both? If it is the first or second concept then the total differential is three in each case. However, if the third is true, and both are in flux, then the possibilities are endless and infinite, concerning alternate realities, or alternate universes, or a combination of both. (Haven't even touched on the concept of alternate timelines, you know, being phased out of time by 1/1,000,000th of a second, enough to be in a totally different plane of existence on the same world...).

How about that for a nightcap, cogitation?

v/r

Q

[littlemissattitude]

Well, there are those who suspect that all time is simultaneous. That there really is no past and no future, but only an eternal now. This poses some problems for things like free will that I'm not sure I'm comfortable with. However, it is something to think about.

Others see God as operating outside of time, which would remove a lot of problems with ideas about God hearing all prayers and keeping an eye on all of us individually. In a contemporary theologies class I took a while back we had an interesting disucssion about this theory and it's alternative, that God is bound to time just like we are.

This is one of those places where theology and physics can have great dialogue.

I haven't figured out what I believe about this problem, myself. But it is an interesting area of inquiry. I don't have any references for any of this at the moment; I'll post any links or reading suggestions if I can find them. For now, I just thought I'd share.

[Quahom1]

"...Others see God as operating outside of time, which would remove a lot of problems with ideas about God hearing all prayers and keeping an eye on all of us individually....that God is bound to time just like we are."

Your alternative about God being bound to time just like we are is definitely something to ponder, or a variation of that thought.

If man is not bound by time, and it can be proven beyond reasonable doubt, then why should God be bound by time? Would you agree with this line of reasoning?

(and here I thought my Algebra teacher was nuts when he said I'd be using theorems in daily life and thought...go figure).

Ok, here goes. Einstein theorized that the faster an object (or person) accelerates toward the speed of light, a time dialation occurs for both that which is moving and the observer of that movement from a fixed point. Now from each vantage point, time (relative time) is the same as always, but to that being observed, time has changed.

Example: I am a twin and am placed on a vessel headed for oh, say Alpha Centauri (about 28 light years from Earth), at birth, while my twin remains on the planet. All physical obstructions aside about matter obtaining light speed, let's say I do, and I arrive at Alpha Centauri 28 years later. I am a young man just getting into the prime of my life, and my twin? He's been dust for 1500 years.

From his perspective, my time slowed to a dead stop, and from my perspective his time went into ultra fast forward. But from our own perspectives about our own lives time moved along at the same annual pace.

Interesting theorem you might say, but has it been proven? yep.

By using synchronized atomic chronographs (one on Earth and the other in Apollo moon shots), it was found that even though the space craft moved at a fraction of the speed of light, there was as a result a fraction of a difference in the two clocks. In effect, time slowed down for the astronauts going to the moon, or time sped up for those left on Earth.

Furthermore, during cycletron operations with atomic particles here on Earth it is been documented that the rate of decay for those particles being fired at or near the speed of light is slower than those used as a control.

What is my point? Well...if time is not "fixed" for any two physical humans, why should it be "fixed" for a God who is not made of matter (the great equalizer), but of spirit/energy?

The theory goes on to speculate that if we were to exceed the speed of light, time would for us, stop, then reverse (go backwards).

Being made of matter (a very low frequency energy), it is impossible for us to actually reach light speed (it would take infinite energy and we would become infinite in mass). BUT, under the right conditions, it is possible.

An atomic explosion is a great case in point. The initial explosion is definitely slower than the speed of light (and that is on purpose), but the resulting chain reaction (critical mass), reaches (and some say exceeds) the speed of light. To you and I the explosion is instantaneous, but inside the explosion, it takes forever.

Oh, I've burned some brain cells on this one.

God must be beyond the scope of time, because we know we can be. and according to the Judaic/Christian testaments, God knew of our capacity...He said as much (then confounded everyone with different languages, just to keep us from getting too big for our britches too fast)

You know what bugs me most? God is a lot like my Dad when I was a kid. If it weren't for Dad, I'd have been flying around the neighborhood in my "airplane" by age 6 (but he banned me and my "Radio Flyer" wagon/with wings, from the roof of our garage).

Right idea, wrong timing.

v/r

Q

[littlemissattitude]

I never thought about it in light of Einstein and relativity. But now that you bring it up, I'm not sure whether the effect is real and we aren't bound by time, or whether it is an illusion of some kind. Or if that makes any difference. Time itself may be an illusion that we are bound to in some way because of our physical state, and the effects of relativity when travelling at the speed of light, or at least rapidly enough that the effect is noticeable just a changing view of that physical bond to time.

But, certainly, if that is not an illusion and humans are not bound by time, then God would not be bound by it either. To have God bound to time and humans not would make no sense at all. My own bias is that God does indeed operate outside of time, whatever time is and whether or not humans are bound to it in some way.

I really like the part about time starting to move backward. The idea of time travel, which some theores say this effect would allow, has always fascinated me. But then, time travel, or what we would see as time travel, would also be theoretically possible if all time were simultaneous. This would also solve such paradoxes as precognition and visions of ghosts and such; all these would simply be different manifestations of somehow viewing another point on the line. The effects of this theory on free will still bother me, however. We may very well not have free will, but I wish to retain the illusion of it anyway.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,

if you really want to cook your noodle, check out some of the 11D Matrix Theories. it is the first one to present a theory of Quantum Gravity...

but that's not all that important for this bit...

it's postulated that our universe is a "pocket" universe and there are googles of them. in effect, every potentiality that could be, is, in one of the other pocket universes.

gotta run for the night.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

Namaste all,

if you really want to cook your noodle, check out some of the 11D Matrix Theories. it is the first one to present a theory of Quantum Gravity...

but that's not all that important for this bit...

it's postulated that our universe is a "pocket" universe and there are googles of them. in effect, every potentiality that could be, is, in one of the other pocket universes.

gotta run for the night.

Yes, the potential for alternate realities is as common as the choices we each make in life. And we have infinite choices. It isn't so hard to conceive. As long as one can accept an alternate version of self as living elsewhere. Same spirit, same person, different versions of outcome.

Again, "Allah in His infinite wisdom, loves wonderous variety".

Greetings go with you Vaj.

[Quahom1]

Let's see, there was a novel put out in the late 70s or early 80s I think, by F. M. Busby Called "All these Earths". It was about a man who left his own reality, and could never quite find his way back...sometimes getting close, and other times being so far off track, his head would spin.

In some realities he had to watch out for his double (two identical objects cannot occupy the same space at the same time), and in others, he never existed, and in others man never existed.

"littlemissattitude" expressed thoughts concerning deja vu, and other such phenomenon. Could it be that deja vu is more than a synapse relay refiring an instant later in our brain, causing us to experience a "past experience", or a moment that is different than what we currently know?

Ever wonder why an object you knew was in one place, then when you went to get it, it was gone...you swear it was there, and later when you least expect it, there it is where you thought originally? (alcohol and drugs aside).

What if we don't live in a universe? What if we live in a multiverse? And what if our concept of the cosmos is as limited as our current thinking, but actually as expansive as our imagination?

Just a thought...

[I, Brian]

Heh, the trouble with time is that, in mathematical terms, time has no direction. It is merely the act of human consciousness that perceives time as flowing in a particular direction.

According to maths, any event dependent upon time as a factor should be quite reversible. So if you give a cup enough energy, you should be able to make it repair itself and then leap back up onto the table that it fell from.

I'm under the impression that "entropy" is the invention used to divorce the abstract mathematics from human observation.

As for God and time - I guess if you think in simple terms of "space-time" as being like a form of medium, then anything outside of that medium will therefore not be restrained by it. There may well be a pretty recurrent cross-cultural philosophy of God existing beyond space and time, in which case, ancient peoples were well up on the issue before Einstein.

[littlemissattitude]

Quahom - if you want to play with the alternate realities scenario, you should read a little novel called "The Man Who Folded Himself" by David Gerrold. Yeah, the guy who wrote the tribbles episode of "Star Trek". The book concerns the idea that every time we make a choice (as I recall, it's been years since I read it) we create a new alternate reality. The main character goes bouncing around all these alternatives, having some interesting adventures along the way.

And as for deja vu...I find that the deja vu experience is a really frightening thing, whatever the cause. I tend to have these experiences rather more than I would like to, and they invariably creep me out.

I do like, however, the idea of living in the midst of an infinite number of universes...gives rise to an infinite number of possibilities. I've always believed, very seriously, that anything that anyone has or can imagine has already happened, is happening now, or will happen at some point, somewhere (or all at the same time, if the "all time is simultaneous" theory proves out to be true), and an infinite number of universes facilitates that quite well.

Then again, I've been told that I have an outrageous and dangerous imagination.

Happy New Year to all, and keep on exercising those synapses.

[WHKeith]

I’ve heard it said that time is just what keeps everything from happening at once.

Quahom1, with respect, I’d like to see a cite on that statement about nuclear chain reactions exceeding the speed of light. I’ve heard of no such observation. When you say that “inside the explosion it takes forever,” though . . . that has echoes of black hole physics. Gravity slows the passage of time the same way motion does; as you approach the event horizon of a black hole, the point at which the escape velocity of the singularity is the speed of light, the passage of time in the rest of the universe, as experienced by the unfortunate astronaut who’s fallen in, appears tremendously accelerated, while, to an observer outside, the astronaut appears frozen in time.

Nuclear explosions aside, along with the attendent problems of measuring the passage of time inside a nuclear fireball, I will say that recent experiments in quantum dynamics have demonstrated that nonlocality is fact—meaning that some phenomenon, notably the transmission of information telepathically or through remote viewing and certain instances of remote healing, appear to bypass space-time rather than move through it. That doesn’t say that faster-than-light travel is possible, but does suggest an underlying unity to all subatomic particles independent of what we see as space and time.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

What if we don't live in a universe? What if we live in a multiverse? And what if our concept of the cosmos is as limited as our current thinking, but actually as expansive as our imagination?

Yeah! A favorite musing of mine. Brian can tell you I’ve been pestering him for months with that notion . . . the idea that we create our own pocket realities by interacting with Heisenbergian probability on a quantum level, that those realities overlap and create a consensual reality that we only THINK is “real.” I just finished writing a book [he says modestly] discussing that very idea, and suggesting that magic involves deliberately shifting one’s self from one universe to another within the multiverse. [Ah! THAT’S why I can’t find my socks! Left ‘em in the next universe over!]

In some previous posts, I’ve alluded to hypnotic regressive sessions that took the subject back, not to a previous life, but to the between-life, a mode of existence that definitely appears to exist—if that’s the word—outside of space-time. Some thousands of subjects have reported being able to revisit and relive past lives, being able to observe past lives as they would have unfolded had different choices been made (which strongly supports the quantum many-universe notion), and to observe possible future lives, including important crises and decision points. This appears to dovetail nicely with some NDE memories and the dogma of spiritualist churches as well.

All of this is anecdotal, of course, but it seems to support the intriguing idea that our REAL life is within a God’s-eye milieu outside of space and time, and that we enter this space-time continuum at intervals—if THAT means anything!—in order to learn and grow.

Happy New Years, everyone!

[WHKeith]

littlemissattitude . . . ponder this, if you will!

Yes, I believe in a multiverse with an infinity of universes, with more universes spawned each time a quantum choice must be made.

Yes,I believe we create universes, simply by thinking of them . . . another way of saying we create reality.

I'm a science fiction writer. My stock-in-trade is creating worlds and, sometimes, blowing them up.

Am I guilty of mass-murder on a multiversal scale?

[brucegdc]

Originally Posted by WHKeith

littlemissattitude . . . ponder this, if you will!

Yes, I believe in a multiverse with an infinity of universes, with more universes spawned each time a quantum choice must be made.

Yes,I believe we create universes, simply by thinking of them . . . another way of saying we create reality.

I'm a science fiction writer. My stock-in-trade is creating worlds and, sometimes, blowing them up.

Am I guilty of mass-murder on a multiversal scale?

Let's see... latest one of yours I picked up (I'm running behind, it was from 2002 - Bolo Strike - found it in the airport on the way off to Victoria before Christmas).. page 3 has 10,000 personnel in the battle group.. by page 6, at least 2/3 of them are blown to bits. Yep.

Feeling guilty yet?
At least their existence was brief.
At least they got to exist (unlike the creations I theoretically could spawn but haven't).

Is it better to exist for a brief spark than not to have existed at all in the mind of the author?

Interesting thought. Can't reconcile my knowledge of you with the persona of a mass murderer though.

[littlemissattitude]

Originally Posted by WHKeith

littlemissattitude . . . ponder this, if you will!

Yes, I believe in a multiverse with an infinity of universes, with more universes spawned each time a quantum choice must be made.

Yes,I believe we create universes, simply by thinking of them . . . another way of saying we create reality.

I'm a science fiction writer. My stock-in-trade is creating worlds and, sometimes, blowing them up.

Am I guilty of mass-murder on a multiversal scale?

Ouch! Maybe that's why I so hate to kill any of my characters off when I'm playing with fiction.

Seriously, I have thought about this. I'm not so sure if it is the writer, the one imagining the events, who creates them. I had always thought the situation was more that the events happen, the people live and die or whatever else happens to them, and the person thinking of them just picks up on the events and lives. Sort of like remote viewing across universes, for want of a better description. This is kind of along the lines of Alice Walker's theory that her characters just come visit her and tell her their stories, and she is just the scribe. In this theory, she is not responsible for the events, but just is the vehicle for telling about them.

A couple of novels you might find interesting along these lines, that consider creation and responsibility:

"God Game" by Andrew Greeley (yes, the Catholic priest/sociologist/romance novelist). This is a cool little fantasy novel about a priest who is fond of playing computer RPGs. Well, one night while he's playing during a thunderstorm (see, there's a reason why they recommend not using computers during close thunderstorms), a bolt of lightning hits something which fries something in his computer and causes a fundamental change in the game - the good father comes to realize that, to the characters in the game, he is God. It's been quite a few years since I've read this, but I recall it being a pretty good book.

"Cosm" by Gregory Benford. This is hard science fiction about a physicist who inadvertently creates a small universe while carrying out another experiment. There is some speculation among the characters about responsibility in cases like this, if I remember correctly. Anyway, I liked this novel a lot.

Hope you have a great New Year.

[Susma Rio Sep]

There are certain avoidably necessary business details we have to deal with in speculating about alternate universes and our place and roles in them.

I refer to the question where is the bathroom, where is the kitchen, when do we eat, and who takes out the garbage.

Are these questions insignificant?

People who took care of astronauts and cosmonauts and brought the first men to land on the moon, they did their homework in that respect.

And that is why they are successful.

My recommendation: as you speculate on altenate univeses, also give some time and labor to the calls of nature -- unless you want to first master the process of transforming our existence from the cellular to the immaterial psychic one that is even independent of the brain organ.

Susma Rio Sep

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,

in my opinion, Bohr and Bell have both demonstrated that we do not create reality, even though we do cause the wave form to collapse.

though i do find the ideas in the 11D theories to be quite striking, especially the pocket universes in the landscape, as they call it.