Allowing child molesters in church?

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

So what is your view, should these people be forgiven and allowed into a church congregation? Would you feel safe with them around your children or small children you know?

I think you are confusing forgiveness and trust. Christians are called to forgive, although I must say I don't know how easy or even possible it would be for me to forgive someone who molested my child, or myself if I had been molested as a child. But when with God's help we are able to forgive we hand over the anger and our cravings for vengence. Forgiveness is in a way letting God help us with these burdens.

As for trust, that must be earned. This person may or may not be trustworthy around children. I know I would not want to take any chances with my children around him, and I also wonder how newcomers to the church might be warned...seems like it is taking on quite a responsibility. If this congregation chooses to do it I applaud them because that is what community is for...to support each other as we all struggle with our sins, our addictions, our burdens, in this life. Personally I think the convicted peadophile should be kept away from children...a small church group of adults only for support seems like a better solution, but then, I'm not there. It's the sinners who need the Doctor, and the church is the hospital. Likewise this person needs help and monitoring from professional counselors etc..

A final note, if you are part of a largish church you probably have multiple sex offenders in your congregation...you just don't know who they are.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I think you are confusing forgiveness and trust.

A final note, if you are part of a largish church you probably have multiple sex offenders in your congregation...you just don't know who they are.

Hi Lunamoth

I see forgiveness and trust differently but in a situation like this, to me, they are linked. I could never trust this person with a child but to forgive him I must at least trust his desire to repent and not commit the same sin again.

In the UK the police always say they do not have the resources to monitor these people (I believe the same problem comes up in other countries?). So in effect they are simply released back onto the streets and can disappear. It is the age old problem for parents, what do we have to do to keep our children safe, lock the children up as though they are in prison? Or allow them out to play in the neighbourhood and keep our fingers crossed? It's a nightmare.

Salaam

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Hi Lunamoth

I see forgiveness and trust differently but in a situation like this, to me, they are linked. I could never trust this person with a child but to forgive him I must at least trust his desire to repent and not commit the same sin again.

In the UK the police always say they do not have the resources to monitor these people (I believe the same problem comes up in other countries?). So in effect they are simply released back onto the streets and can disappear. It is the age old problem for parents, what do we have to do to keep our children safe, lock the children up as though they are in prison? Or allow them out to play in the neighbourhood and keep our fingers crossed? It's a nightmare.

Salaam

Forgiveness is not like that. Forgiveness, as I said above, is as much for the forgiver as for the forgiven. The forgiver can choose to forgive, to hand the 'fall-out' from the transgression over to God. It's up to that person. They may wish for a person to repent or somehow else make ammends, or perhaps they may not. The Amish community that forgave the person who killed their children are a good example of this. The community is not in a position to forgive unless they are the community that was directly hurt by this person's actions. The community is however in a position to decide whether to trust the perptrator or not. They do not have to automatically do this, and I agree there is good reason not to.

Another thing your post above brings to mind is that you seem to be encouraging us to give in to fear. Fear is not a good way to live, and Jesus said many times, "Do not fear, I am with you." This does not mean we are to naively trust someone with our children, that we should not hold them accountable for their actions, because we should. Yes, we need to be careful with our children, be watchful, take percautions, many of which stem naturally out of a healthy community (and I agree that many communities in our modern world are far from healthy).

Whether it is a good decision or not I dont' know, but this church seems to be taking steps to heal their community. You say the police can't do it...perhaps this church agrees and thinks it is better to have such a person surrounded by people who know him and his past actions, his potential for more criminal behavior. They seem to be doing something about the very problem you identify, and they are not giving in to their fear. Yes, it will take more work and courage on their part but really, what they are doing is a very loving, courageous and a true Christian response to the brokenness of this fallen world.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

you seem to be encouraging us to give in to fear.

Why do you think I am doing that? I am not trying to encourage anyone to do or think anything. This is what I posted earlier on this thread:

Perhaps the answer is state execution Francis, as this relieves their soul of the sin of suicide and it keeps the children safe.

I believe it is every childs right to be safe, no matter about their skin colour, cultural background, religion, etc., if that means governments have to take drastic action then so be it. However, I am also mindful that the person that committed the crime is also a human being and must answer to G-d for what they have done.

As for the priests, it is about time some organisation took the church to the Court of Human Rights - what they do is totally unacceptable.

I find it unacceptable that the church continues to brush this under the carpet and simply move these priests to another area. They should be accountable for their actions and the church must be held accountable for their duplicity.

I did comment on the difficulties that every parent faces, do you wrap your kids in cotton wool or allow them freedom and just pray no harm comes to them? That is not giving in to fear, that is simple reality and a judgement call every parent in the world has to face. Of course, most parents choose middle ground, a degree of freedom within limits parents feel are safe.

I don't know how I would react if this was happening at my local mosque. I posted this thread to ask people their views, if they can forgive, why, for themselves or the criminal, if they can't where does that leave the criminal, an outcast to society which usually causes more harm in the long run.

[Postmaster]

That’s true it's quite difficult to judge if what they did was a morally right choice, committing suicide is against religion. I read an article in the New scientist magazine recently that female ducks have evolved so that they are able to resist male ducks from forceful entry. I think it’s very important that females choose who is going to be next generation of human the race, God help us if it was the other way round. I would say they jumped in quite justified honour.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

I would say they jumped in quite justified honour.

I would say so too. My worry is for the souls of the women, do you think G-d will forgive their suicide? I would hate to think they will spend eternity in pergatory for protecting themselves against such sin.

What an interesting question, if you commit a sin to avoid a sin (ie you have no choice left but to sin and we would trust a faithful person would choose the lesser sin) will G-d forgive you the sin you have to commit?

[Francis king]

muslimwoman u ask: "..if so many of these 'priests' are perverts is it something about the church that attracts them or does the way of life of a priest create the problem?.."

my thoughts are... a priest is just a man, a human, like us all... if a priest finds that he cannot handle being a celibate, then he can have a sexual affair with a non vulnerable adult parishioner, or he can visit a prostitute...to think a priest might feel that sex with children is his only option to me is wrong... I could forgive my priest an affair, so long as he was not abusing his position, and I could also forgive his visits to prostitutes, although if he was visiting a drug addicted street-whore from the red light district instead of a mature non-addicted lady of the night from an agency then I would question his scruples...

I think that most child abusers are cunning, and they deliberately seek a position of authority and trust where they will have open access to children. They cannot openly abuse children; they would be lynched. They need to win the trust of the children they abuse, and they also need to win the trust of the parents, and they need to be somebody above suspicion. What better place than that of priest? Usually when an adult takes an interest in your child you are concerned, but if that adult is a sports coach or a teacher or a priest, then the rules of social conformity kick in, and there is some justification in their spending time with your children. Even if you are naturally suspicious, you will ignore your fears if the person appears to be beyond reproach...

...paedophilia ia a paraphilia, something which is "beyond love", a sexual perversion, a taboo, something which is beyond the normal human range... homosexuality used to be a paraphilia, funnily enough, before lots of ppl admitted they were gay... maybe one day we will class paedophilia as just another form of sexual expression, but I hope not... it is rife, if we are honest... our culture is steeped in paedophilic images and themes- william s burroughs' Queer, nabokof's Lolita, greek poems about boy love- if u go to wikipedia and type in- padeophilia and child sexual abuse in fiction you will find hundreds of titles, all of which explore the theme in graphic detail...

...as we know, there are many different types of paedophile... there is the paedophile who was abused themselves as a child, and their early sexual experience "primes" them to associate "sex" with "children", yet this type of paedophile is rare- most abused children do not go onto abusing children themselves, although they will most likely spend some time examining themselves and hoping that they do not become paedophiles, but this is mainly because of the myth that paedophiles were once abused children...

...then you have the paedophile who is socially inept, usually of limited intelligence, who non deliberately develop a sexual relationship with a young person because they are unable to develop and maintain relationships with normal adults, again, these are quite rare...

...then there is the paedophile who says he "loves" children and will present you with stories of how the age of consent is a societal construct and offer examples of how his love is reciprocated by his victims, the "true" paedophile, the man who feels what he does is not wrong but is clever enough to know that society does not like ppl like him, alarmingly ppl like this are not that rare,

...then there is the power and control sexual abuser, who uses sex as another weapon is his arsenal and who wants his victims to be frightened and feel fear, they are usually also wife beaters and rapists... again, not that rare...

...and then there is the sadistic child abuser, who forces children to suffer simply because he finds it exciting and enjoys it and it gives him a thrill like no other, but these sexual predators are quite rare...

the majority of child abusers are not sadistic child snatchers, strangers who opportunistically steal children from the street, nor are the majority openly physically violent, beyond the sex act... they are usually men who are attracted to the whole process of child abusing- they like to find a child, win them over, groom them, and then abuse them, they like lying to families and having a secret which only they and their victims are aware of, and most of them never get caught... when they do, you find that the current victim is not the only one, and they have a long history of comitting similiar crimes... there is a paedophile sub culture at large, a whole sordid world of them- they have key words and key phrases which they will bring into conversation with others, looking for others who behave the same way, and when they find others like them they will share their stories and often their victims, if they can... there are manuals you can buy which tell you all about how best to groom and seduce children, and if u search for them u can find them online at the click of a mouse...

...statistics suggest that most children who suffer sexual abuse are not attacked by strangers, more often than not the abuser is a family member, a close friend of the family, or an adult in a position of authority- teachers, youth leaders, members of the church, et cetera... the likelihood of being molested by a stranger as a child is small, less than 0.2%, a figure which has remained stable over time, even during times of war and disaster, when normal behaviours become skewed for even the most moral of ppl...

...places like church schools and childrens' homes attract paedophiles because they allow potential paedophiles access to vulnerable children and also cloak their true motives with respectability.

Unless they have an IQ below 65, there is no excuse. Zero tolerance is the only way to go...

I heard last week that in some states in america they are gong to force sex offenders to have lisence plates which read "sx offndr"... I suggest we go one better, and tatoo it on their foreheads so we all know who they are...

[Muslimwoman]

as salaam aleykum Francis

What a fascinating post, a real insight. Thank you for taking the time.

So from what you say I assume these people seek out positions in churches because it gives them a degree of respectability. What I don't understand is why the church doesn't take a stronger line with these people, simply moving them to a new parish just moves the problem elsewhere and does nothing to protect children.

I often hear people express the view that it is quite a modern phenomenon but I can't agree. I think it has always been a part of society but was well hidden behind closed doors.

Salaam

[wil]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Forget forgiving child molesters, there’s no path available to people like that. It's obvious that anyone who brings themselves to doing something like that has rejected any virtues path. Maybe eventually excusable by God if the person was raised by a really dysfunctional family and a twisted childhood but how do you excuse when a priest does it?

If the church won't take them who will? Just because one is a priest does that negate the possibility that he had the same issues?

You say they've rejected virtues, I've come to believe somewhere in their life, probably numerous times, the supposed virtuous rejected them. That they asked for love and got otherwise, causing them to look for it in all the wrong places.

Is the solution truly to reject them again? Who is dancing off the cliff now?

[Postmaster]

Live by the sword die by the sword? Can't that be put into spiritual sense too?

[Tao_Equus]

I agree with Francis. The most prolific and dangerous child molesters do everything they can to gain trust/authority positions and perhaps some sort of lie detector testing of people seeking such positions is required. Perhaps it is embarrassing to the innocent but if they are seeking to work with children then they will love them in the right way and understand the need to at least attempt to weed out the sick perverts.

I will never support the death penalty but I would give 100% support to a tatoo on the forehead.. Infact I think thats the only way to go unless we jail them for life, and I mean till they die. The current culture here of giving them 3 or 4 years jail (out in 2) if they get jail at all is totaly unacceptable and almost acts as societal consent, not a detterant.

Francis you referred to homosexuality once being categorised a paraphillia and this itself is an important point. The majority of these perverts do not distinguish between the sexes, they will groom and abuse both. The 'gay' community at large has some, IMO, overtly malign ideas. They have pushed for and see it as their right to go into our schools and 'educate' children on their agenda. This is so very wrong. They are the most active group in trying to lower the age of consent. And in popular culture which is full of gay men like Graham Norton constantly making humour out of the gay 'ideal' of a very young man. A boy really. Gay rights, and so called gay pride have all come too far. We would not accept confessed paedophiles going into our schools to preach their ideas yet we let gays do it. Its just wrong.

The issue of these people seeking out the cloth as their cover is a difficult question. My personal opinion is that a significant minority of those that seek authority as a religious leader are bound to be and are sick self-important, self-serving individuals. And tho, Muslimwoman, they are coming under increasing exposure in the Catholic and anglican church, I have no doubt at all that they are just as active in Islam. And without doubt mental and physical abuse of children in Islamic education is routine.

So tatoo the sicko's, with BIG red letters on the forehead MOLESTER, or jail them for the rest of their lives. Parents have a right to know who the perverts are at a glance that far outweighs any rights that the perverts themselves chose to relinquish by commiting terrible acts against innocent children.

[Miss Amy]

I am also of two minds on this. My head tells me that I believe that everyone deserves to be forgiven however...

I think that there are consequences for actions. I think to be forgiven by the church and seeking religious guidance is OK. However, I think that should be done privately. From what I understand of church, it is supposed to be a sanctuary, what message does this tell children who are supposed to feel safe?

There are consequences to our actions. And if you yourself were molested or someone you know, the effect that this has on their lives is incredible... However I wonder why these people even get out of jail...

The other question I have always wondered about is if the desire to have a physical relationship with another person is so strong that is almost "dements" people who for their strong catholic convictions are forbidden from having anytype of intimate relations with another person. Maybe it is that lack of intimacy that drives them. I wonder what would happen if this were to change...

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Miss Amy

The other question I have always wondered about is if the desire to have a physical relationship with another person is so strong that is almost "dements" people who for their strong catholic convictions are forbidden from having anytype of intimate relations with another person. Maybe it is that lack of intimacy that drives them. I wonder what would happen if this were to change...

When someone makes the choice of being a celibate person, in this case as part of their religious vocation, it should not "dement" the person because it is a choice made by that person "up front", knowing what the "role" involves. So yes it is strange...

I have only heard of this abuse amongst the Catholic church, does it go on in other faiths where celibacy is involved?

s.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

I have only heard of this abuse amongst the Catholic church, does it go on in other faiths where celibacy is involved?

OK answering my own question; it's a human thing not a Catholic thing. This link just to demonstrate (it's the first one I found), not to be anti any other faith.

Jewish Survivors of Sexual Violence Speak Out

s.

[Tao_Equus]

A man becomes a priest for many reasons and many individuals that have walked that walk do not do so because they feel that 'calling'. This has been especially true in the past where becoming a priest was in the same merit scaling as becoming a doctor or lawyer. Often there was powerful familial pressures to join. This may be changing now I'm not sure.

Another way to look is that the young man has 'perverse' ideas from a young age and uses the church as a tool of suppresion. he thinks that joining the priesthood, renouncing sexuality will help him conquer his own thots.

There is a standing joke where i live about every man liking a 'good catholic girl'. The base of this joke stems from the idea that catholicism's inflexibility on issues of sexual desire actualy, in many cases, backfires and creates lust. In my own experience there is some truth in this too. Maybe the real reason is that catholic women play a one upmanship game with each other on the priest at confession?

As an aside, my school had several pupils from Nazereth House, an orphange run by catholic nuns. These children routinely underwent torture that would cause uproar if carried out at Abu Graib. This included, beating, isolation and starvation. These women were EVIL, yet cloistered themselves in the clothes of good. Abuse at the hands of wicked churchfolk is not limited to the odd sick priest but was for centuries normal. Thank God things are at last changing.