All paths lead to God?

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by Nogodnomasters

There are about 33,000 gods out there. They are very diverse and cover all areas of the spectrum. This does not count the big A's- agnosticism and atheists. Yet somehow I am to believe that all paths will unite us in the concept of the one divinity or Monad, never mind the Duad or Triad.

I would be a gonad to believe it.

That's make me realise I should amend the Parable of the Sea - not sure how to apply it properly yet - simply added an extra line at the end:

http://www.comparative-religion.com/...arable_sea.php

A person had never seen the sea before, and wanted to know more about it, so asked three people what the sea was.

The first was an American, who said: "The sea is merely a place of recreation, for I go there to play: I jetski and surf the wave, and water-ski from fast boats. Truly the sea is a place just for recreation, though I must beware of sharks."

The second was a Filipino, who said: "The sea is a place of life that only sustains us, for I fish there to feed my family. I swim out to the reefs and catch all manner of foods. Truly the sea is a place just for harvest, though I must beware of sharks."

The third was an Inuit, who said: "The sea is a frozen wasteland covered by ice, though I fish in holes to feed my family. There are seals, and walruses, and polar bears roam the snowy ice sheets. Truly the sea is a frozen wasteland, though it sustains us. There are no sharks there."

The American turned to the others and said: "I agree with the Filipino that there are sharks, but there are no reefs in the sea, and neither is the sea a place for harvest, for I get all of my food in fast food chains and café-bars. As for the Inuit, I can only say that there is no ice in the sea, nor polar bears or walruses, though there are seals. Truly you have never seen the sea and you are wrong."

The Filipino turned to the others and said: "I agree with the Amercian that the sea can be a place of play, but there are no jetskis or surfers and there are no fast boats, but it is not simply a place for recreation, for I play with my children only on the safety of the shores. As for the inuit, I can only say that he has never seen the sea, for it is not icy of cold, but warm anf tropical, and I have never heard of bears or walruses or seals. Neither of the others has seen the sea properly, and are mistaken in their views."

The inuit turned to the others and said: "I agree with the Filipino that the sea may be a place of harvest, but you would die to swim in it, for it is a freezing place and not warm or tropical in the slightest. There are no boats, no jetskis, and there are no sharks at all. As for the American, I can only say that he lies, for there are none of those things he says in the sea at all. Only the ice plays on the water, for I have seen this."

Who has spoken the most truth? Who should the person who asked believe most? Organised belief insists you believe only one.

Of course, for those who live in a desert, why should they even believe in the sea?

[aged hippy]

I would recommend that one looks carefully at each puddle.

Warmest Regards,
malcolm


"All descriptions of reality are temporary hypotheses." - Buddha Gotama

[Nogodnomasters]

Brian, your parable is based on an unproven a priori that god exists and people who make the claim as having found him/her have really done so. While the sea can be proven to exist by simply leading one to the shore, with god it is not that easy.

I use an invisible elf parable to explain Christianity. I have an invisble elf on my shoulder who is also massless so you can't touch him. My invisible elf makes it rain. Proof that my elf exist is the fact that is rains.

Oh by the way, if you do not believe in and worship my elf, send me 10% of your income you will burn for all eternity because my elf loves you.

[sachetm]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

In other words - although for the most part it's suggested in previous posts that God cannot be defined - even "properly" understood by the human mind - is it not possible that at some point, someone, somewhere, is able to comprehend God absolutely??

Not unless man and God can be, essentially, one and the same--at least to the extent that's relevant for humans to know. (I cede there may well be aspects that are simply irrelevant to human life and if so, they don't matter, anyway--not to us.)

During Creation, did God implant within humans--maybe other forms of life and even non-organic matter--some sort of "Godhead" with which to access or comprehend Him? Some capacility to bridge the gap between Creator and creation (e.g., time and timelessness)? Sort of like recursion?

Personally, I believe it's possible. I also think it explains who Jesus was--a man who came to know himself--his essential essence--and began to manifest his "Godhead."

This explanation, to my mind, does a better job of reconciling the concept of "free will" with "divine intervention." There is no free will if there's divine intervention and vice versa. Free doesn't mean sometimes free but sometimes not, depending on God's fancy.

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by Nogodnomasters

Brian, your parable is based on an unproven a priori that god exists and people who make the claim as having found him/her have really done so. While the sea can be proven to exist by simply leading one to the shore, with god it is not that easy.

I use an invisible elf parable to explain Christianity. I have an invisble elf on my shoulder who is also massless so you can't touch him. My invisible elf makes it rain. Proof that my elf exist is the fact that is rains.

Oh by the way, if you do not believe in and worship my elf, send me 10% of your income you will burn for all eternity because my elf loves you.

A problem to note immediately that is that as God cannot be quantified, God therefore cannot be proven or disproven. Hence why analogy is often required to even begin to address the Concept of God.

The same would apply to your elf - unless there is a definite way to quantify it then there is absolutely no logical argument for claiming that it does not exist.

Btw - I would sincerely hope you recognise that the sometimes aggressive nature of Protestant Christianity in the United States of America, is in no way the definitive guide and judgement to all things that either are or may be Divine. In other words, there is more to looking to the Concept of God that the Southern Baptist tradition.

[louis]

the elephant analogy

From Louis...
Yes! I have always considered that story to a perfect analogy for "church".
The point is, your conclusions are only as valid as your original premise -
if you make a mistake right away, as the blind men did ( it wasn't God - just an elephant ) then everything after that was equaly invalid.
If the Biblical prophets were wrong about being "divinely inspired",
( just interpreting their own subconscious insights ) then their words
have no more or less value than any other human concepts.

[louis]

The "popular" saying "All paths lead to God" is one of my personal principles.

From Louis .....
I'm inclined to agree.
I assume there's a God because I think the idea of a "living intelligence"
is the only explanation that GOES FAR ENOUGH - because my finite brain
interprets reality as having a "beginning", which requires a CAUSE.
Of course, I could be wrong - maybe reality is INFINITE, having no
beginning and no need for a cause ( or a God ).
BUT.... in a infinite reality, ALL possibilities would exist - which must
include the possibility that God DOES exist.
And if there's ANY chance God might exist, he probably WOULD !

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Of course, for those who live in a desert, why should they even believe in the sea?

Hi Louis,

Thank you for resurrecting this interesting thread.

"Forever caught in desert lands one has to learn to disbelieve the sea."--Genesis (no, not the bible, the one with Peter Gabriel and Phil Collins!)

Great parable, Brian. Enjoyed yours too, NOGO.

[Avinash]

Originally Posted by Nogodnomasters

Brian, your parable is based on an unproven a priori that god exists and people who make the claim as having found him/her have really done so. While the sea can be proven to exist by simply leading one to the shore, with god it is not that easy.

You may still deny that the sea actually exists even when standing on its shores. In fact your own awareness that you have an I-feeling is the bit of sea you can see from where you're standing right now. Yet you insist there is no ocean beyond it.

Andrew

[StrangeQuark]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

i don't think you are aware of the full range of jewish thought - merely reading an english translation of the so-called "old testament" will not give you the context that a knowledge of the oral tradition that accompanies the written law does. . .

. . . but you won't find these arguments in your king james, of course, which is why fundamentalist literalists appear so ridiculous to jewish eyes.

I know you weren't talking to me, but I wanted to mention how much I appreciate what you refer to here. It really does clear up a lot of the agnst I've had with Christian interpretation of the Old Testament.

Fundamentalists appear ridiculous to me, too.

I don't want to degrade their belief in any way, really, but sometimes the way it is practiced can be very . . . um . . . socially counterproductive? I'm not sure exactly how to put it.

[StrangeQuark]

In response to Brian's original post:

I believe that many (although not all) paths lead to the Divine. I agree with many of the replies given here. Why is my belief any better than someone else's? It's just mine, that's all. I experience God through my senses and conceive of him in my mind, and that's bound to be different in some way from what others believe. I'm equally as prone, in some cases more so, to missing the point as anyone else.

I can't believe that there's only one path. Of course I will choose the one that better suits me, but only one? If there were only one true path I still have no idea of knowing which one it is! There are just too many to choose from and many of them claim to be the only way (not all, I know).

This confusion doesn't stop me from believing. I just choose what makes the most sense for me.

[Avinash]

Originally Posted by brian

Just as there is one world, one sky, one sun - each with many names and expressions - so I see that there is only one Divinity, with a myriad of expressions and names.

I'm curious as to how many people here see the world's religions as existing to explain one Divinity, but through different means that make most sense to different people.

Or is there only one True Path to God, that a single Religion - perhaps even denomination - has sole privileged rights to?

Just like there is only one universe and one set of physical laws, just so is there only one path to God and that is the path that goes through the I-feeling or individual consciousness.

There may be many types of organizations that may or may not claim that their system or method is best, but all have to follow a practical tested system. Those organizations that fall short of this are just fooling their members.

Any spiritual or religious organization which claims that only they have the true way and that you cannot reach the goal in other systems should be distrusted. Such organizations use fear, dogma and superstition to keep people from using their rational faculty.

[StrangeQuark]

Originally Posted by Andreas

. . . there [is] only one path to God and that is the path that goes through the I-feeling or individual consciousness.

Interesting point, Andreas. Would this mean that we are all really using the same path, even if we perceive it differently (that is, assuming we're actually following that path)?

[Avinash]

Originally Posted by StrangeQuark

Interesting point, Andreas. Would this mean that we are all really using the same path, even if we perceive it differently (that is, assuming we're actually following that path)?

That's how I see it. All of creation is moving in the same direction towards liberation of consciousness away from bondage within matter and mind. Spiritual practices are nothing but ways to speed up this process of liberation. So all are moving on the same path but not all people are moving in the same gear (humans can even choose to move backwards for some time).

[StrangeQuark]

You've got me thinking. Unfortunately, I am going to have to sleep on for it now.