Abrogation--The Biggest Lie Against The Holy Qur'an?!

[Amica]

THE LIE OF ABROGATION

THE BIGGEST LIE AGAINST THE QURAN

By : A. Muhammed

[taken from the book by the author titled ‘THE LIE OF ABROGATION’ ]



FIRST VERSE 2:106

"Whichever Ayah We relinquish or cause to be forgotten We replace it with its equal or with that which is greater, did you not know that God is capable of all things?"
They interpret ‘Ayah’ in this verse to mean a verse in the Quran.
But the word Ayah can have one of four different meanings:

a- a miracle :

"And We supported Moses with nine profound Ayah’s (miracles)." 17:101

b- an example :

"And the folk of Noah, when they disbelieved the messengers, We have drowned them and set an Ayah (example) of them for all people." 25:37

c- a sign :

"He said, ‘My Lord, give me an ‘Ayah’ (sign).’ He said, ‘Your Ayah is that you will not speak to people for three consecutive nights." 19:10

d- a verse :

"This is a book that We have sent down to you that is sacred, perhaps they will reflect on its ‘Ayat’ (verses)." 38:29

Now if we consider verse 106 of Sura 2, the word ‘Ayah’ could not mean a verse because of the following reasons:

1- The words "cause to be forgotten" could not be applicable if the word ‘Ayah’ in this verse meant a verse in the Quran. How can a verse in the Quran become forgotten? For even if the verse was invalidated by another it will still be part of the Quran and thus could never be forgotten.

2- The words "We replace it with its equal" would be meaningless if the word ‘Ayah’ in this verse meant a Quranic verse, simply because it would make no sense for God to invalidate one verse then replace it with one that is identical to it!

3- If the word ‘Ayah’ in verse 106 meant a miracle an example or a sign, then all the words of the verse would make perfect sense. The words "cause to be forgotten" can apply to all three meanings and that is what actually happens with the passing of time. The miracles of Moses and Jesus have long been forgotten. We only believe in them because they are mentioned in the Quran.

"We replace with its equal or with that which is greater" is in line with the miracles of God. God indeed replaces one miracle with its equal or with one that is greater than it.
"And We have sent Moses with Our Ayah’s (miracles or signs) to Pharaoh and his elders proclaiming : ‘I am a messenger from the Lord of the universe’. When he brought them our Ayah’s they laughed at him. Every Ayah We showed them was greater than the one that preceded it." 43:46-48

SECOND VERSE 16:101

"When We substitute one Ayat (revelation) in place of another, and God is fully aware of what He reveals, they say, 'You made this up'. Indeed most of them do not know"

The substitution spoken of is of two things:

a- The substitution of one Scripture in place of another.

b- The substitution of one verse or law within a Scripture with another in a subsequent Scripture

a- The first meaning is given evidence to in the following verse:

"Then we revealed to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming previous scriptures, and superseding them." 5:48

Here, the words "superseding them." confirm that the previous scripture were substituted with the Quran.

b- The second meaning is also given evidence to in the Quran where various issues that were prohibited to the previous people of the book were made lawful in the Quran.

This verse 16:101 does not speak about the substitution of one verse in the Quran with another.

The evidence to that is given within the same verse (16:101):
The key to the meaning of the verse lies in the words:

"........they say, 'You made this up"

Here we must stop and ask, who is likely to tell the messenger "You made this up"? and why?
"You have made it up"................it has to be those who do not believe in him, which focuses on the followers of previous scripture who feared that their scripture was in danger of being "substituted"with the Quran............

What more evidence to that more than the fact that till this day, the Jews and Christians accuse Muhammad that he fabricated the Quran himself! If this accusation is from the Jews and Christians we must then ask, are they accusing Muhammad of substituting one verse in the Quran with another? The Jews and Christians do not care if one verse in the Quran is substituted for another, after all they do not believe in the whole book............. they will not complain that one verse in the Quran is being substituted with another! However, and if their Scripture is being substituted by the Quran, they will immediately accuse the messenger that the Scripture he brings (Quran) is not from God but that he "made it up" himself.

[mansio]

The Quran is a compilation of various religious traditions that were around in the Near East in the seventh century.

Nobody accuses Muhammad of having made up the Quran. He only put together, in an original manner, Jewish, Christian, Zoroastrian and pagan elements.

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by mansio

The Quran is a compilation of various religious traditions that were around in the Near East in the seventh century.

No more or less than the Bible perhaps. Or for that matter, both could be the inspired work of God, using the various religious traditions of the day to advance mankind from one stage to the next which the various religious traditions of the day were incapable of doing by themselves.

[mansio]

All religions borrow from each other, the Bible included.

We can put a name on "one religious tradition of the day", as you say.

Do you think Christianity has been unable to advance mankind by itself ?

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by mansio

Do you think Christianity has been unable to advance mankind by itself ?

Some certainly. But there is a very long history of advancement before ~5BC!!

[Gnostradamus]

I believe that verses of the Qur'an HAVE been abrogated, and I take these beliefs from Sahih Hadiths in Bukhari and Muslim.

There are so many Hadiths that confirm that abrogation has taken place, I see no reason to doubt them, and this is based on two reasons;

1) I've never come across a Qur'anic verse that denies internal abrogation.

2) I've never come across a Hadith that rejects the concept of Qur'anic abrogation.

If you happen to know of any Qur'anic verses, or Hadiths that deny the concept of abroagtion I would be grateful to hear about them inshallah.

[Amica]

Hi/Peace to all!

Gnostradamus Hi!

I do not believe that there is a Hadith that speaks of the abrogation. But neither does the Qur'an speak of the abrogation of its laws. I think that the words of Qur'an have been mistranslated, or wrongly understood.

The main argument that the Hadith uses for abrogation 'evidence' are the verse 2:106 and 16:101 which are mentioned in my post.

The Holy Qur'an instructs people to read the Book carefully, yet many people, including Muslims, at times ignore this instruction. I believe that Qur'an does not promote abrogations of its verses. If there are statements that may seem to 'contradict' themselves, they deserve to be looked at carefully, analysed based on the situation the verse is referring to and the context of the sura it is given into.

[Gnostradamus]

Originally Posted by Amica

Hi/Peace to all!

Gnostradamus Hi!

I do not believe that there is a Hadith that speaks of the abrogation. But neither does the Qur'an speak of the abrogation of its laws. I think that the words of Qur'an have been mistranslated, or wrongly understood.

The main argument that the Hadith uses for abrogation 'evidence' are the verse 2:106 and 16:101 which are mentioned in my post.

The Holy Qur'an instructs people to read the Book carefully, yet many people, including Muslims, at times ignore this instruction. I believe that Qur'an does not promote abrogations of its verses. If there are statements that may seem to 'contradict' themselves, they deserve to be looked at carefully, analysed based on the situation the verse is referring to and the context of the sura it is given into.

Hi Amica,

Thank you for your reply, abrogation happens to be a favourite topic of mine as it happens to be a good illustration of progressive revelation.

You said;

Originally Posted by Amica

I do not believe that there is a Hadith that speaks of the abrogation.

I happen to have in front of me 11 Hadiths from Sahih al-Bukhari that confirm the concept of abrogation, and 9 Hadiths from Sahih Muslim.

This one is the most clear in terms of confirming Qur'anic abrogation;

Muslim Book 003, Number 0675:

Abu al. 'Ala' b. al-Shikhkhir said: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) abrogated some of his commands by others, just as the Qur'an abrogates some part with the other.

and these two are a good illustration of which verses abrogate eachother;

Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 285:

Narrated Al-Qasim bin Abi Bazza:

That he asked Said bin Jubair, "Is there any repentance of the one who has murdered a believer intentionally?" Then I recited to him:--

"Nor kill such life as Allah has forbidden except for a just cause." Said said, "I recited this very Verse before Ibn 'Abbas as you have recited it before me. Ibn 'Abbas said, 'This Verse was revealed in Mecca and it has been abrogated by a Verse in Surat-An-Nisa which was later revealed in Medina."

Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 286:

Narrated Said bin Jubair:

The people of Kufa differed as regards the killing of a believer so I entered upon Ibn 'Abbas (and asked him) about that. Ibn 'Abbas said, "The Verse (in Surat-An-Nisa', 4:93) was the last thing revealed in this respect and nothing cancelled its validity."

This concept of abrogation is very important to me because as far as minhaj goes, there aren't many that would reject Hadiths from the Sahih collections.

Thanks again.

[mansio]

I would be pleased that abrogation wouldn't exist in the Quran and that Amica were right. Alas I think she's wrong.

[Saltmeister]

Whether or not quoting the Hadiths proves abrogation depends on the Hadiths' purpose. As far as I know, the hadiths are a collection of commentaries on the Quran, as well as narratives and biographical accounts of the Prophet.

The Quran is considered to be the word of God but the hadiths are not. While Mohammed himself might have contributed to the hadiths, from Islam's point of view it was Mohammed's own interpretation of the Quran. Though Mohammed's behaviour may have deviated greatly from what the Quran taught, it would not have been Quran-inspired.

I haven't read the Quran or hadiths myself, but this is what I know from what I've heard. Can the hadiths be used to prove abrogation? Perhaps only if there is a strong correlation between the hadiths and the verses revealed in the Quran that are suspected of being abrogated.

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by smkolins

>> Originally Posted by mansio
>> Do you think Christianity has been unable to advance mankind by itself ?

Some certainly. But there is a very long history of advancement before ~5BC!!

Or perhaps we're missing the point . . .

My personal belief is that the Bible's primary purpose is not to advance humankind, but lead us to God and His Kingdom.

Therefore, the Bible isn't a book of scientific advances, but a step-by-step progressive explanation of the secret of God and His Kingdom. Does the Bible abrogate itself? No, we simply see the jigsaw puzzle gradually revealing, piece by piece, the secret it was made convey when it is finally put together and we see the big picture . . .

I think the advancement of civilisation was the result of people uncovering bits and pieces of this Wonderful Secret but never quite discovering the Secret itself. Once we discover this Secret, we may discover that all these advances were not necessary at all, but the Secret solves all of our problems.

Likewise, the Quran may have its own secret that it conveys in its own special way.

[I, Brian]

Moved to the Islam board.