Abrahamic? Am I missing the meaning?

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Mick

Do you really think that is what it means? Hmmmm. In (9), it seems Paul is telling us that ..."if the Spirit of God lives in you." Not 'the spirit of God lives in you.', but "IF..." In fact Paul goes on to state that there is a condition where the Spirit is not in you..."And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ...", so it would seem to support the "if" word.

Not sure what point you are making by emphasizing the word 'if' here.

It suggests to me that Paul is inferring you must install the spirit. I would suggest by the acceptance as Jesus as your Savior. If this is true, and it surely seems that is what Paul is suggesting, then it doesn't support your premise of "indwelling". I have not found where Christianity supports this notion.

Oh, then you are confused. I must say that I don't usually think about the Spirit as indwelling myself, because I don't really think of these things materially. Yet, somehow the Holy Spirit is here with us, and we can show the fruits of that Spirit in our daily lives. The "installation" of the Spirit, as you put, is associated with baptism, in my understanding. Yet, as you point out, the Spirit apparently can be veiled or blocked out even in baptized believers, by an act of will.

On the other hand, we, Baha'is, do believe in a soul that exists from the time of conception. It does dwell within us and can be nourished with prayer, entreatment of God and good acts. The soul, in return, helps guide us in our daily lives. We also believe that at the time of the recognition of God, the nourishment is so great, that people seem to glow. I know that I have been around Christian friends that have recently been "born again" and they truly were filled with a spiritual power that was overwhelming. This is true with those I have been around that have recognized Baha'u'llah and His Station. These are the only two religions I have been close to the advocates of at the time of declaration, but I would think it is true no matter how one recognizes God. Numbers 10 and 11 seem to explain and promise but surely don't suggest that the soul is within you at the time of conception.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that Christians do not believe that we are born with, conceived with, a soul. At baptism we die and are reborn in Christ, or born again. Thus, all baptized Christians are born again. I don't believe that the Holy Spirit is limited and while baptism by water is an outward sign of an inner reality, I believe the Spirit reaches all people who reach for Her. I've seen people from many different religions, and no religion, glowing with the power of the Spirit.

peace,
lunamoth

[Mick]

Originally Posted by taijasi

Then again, let's not forget that the Bahai notion of an indwelling Soul as our higher nature, unless it draws from teachings pre-Sufi & pre-Islamic ... is certainly just a borrowing of the same concept from Buddhist, Vedic, and other sources - dating back many tens of thousands of years!!! The Christian teachers, such as Origen and Clement of Alexandria, knew this, and so did St. Paul - being well-versed in the Wisdom Teachings of his day.

This may be well and true and surely the Buddha taught us of our soul, but I am not aware of any Christian dogma/teaching that tells us of a soul and the importance of it. In fact, I am not aware of any teaching in any of the religions, that their soul can be nourished and helpful as a guide. It it was once taught, it was lost in time. I do not know anything about Origen and Clement, but am well read in Paul and I am not aware of Paul instructing anybody to nourish their soul. In fact, he seems to describe it as a receiver of the Holy Spirit rather than a seperate entity that can be strengthened with our actions and dialogue with God.

By the way, the Buddha attained to Jhana 543 years before Christ, which is about 2500 years ago, not tens of thousands.

simply amazing that folks still clamor to present their version of the Ageless Wisdom - or God's own Truth - as somehow proprietary, TradeMarked, and "original." At best, one might say, in the Bahai Faith, such & such is called x. Surely this would be more in accordance with the facts. For, if we wish to discuss the presence of the Indwelling Christ, Buddhi, Soul, or spiritual principle ... then we'll need to go back at least to the ancient Greek and still more ancient Egyptian texts, although the Vedic (Hindu) will also speak to this subject.

Let's go back. But why? Each of the Manifestations gave us something that helped us to better our lives and to advance society. The knowledge of the soul and its ability to be nourished came from Baha'u'llah. Just a fact, Andrew and since then, people have been using that knowledge to the advantage of society. It's the way it works in the realm of God.

By the way, what is the "such and such by x"? Are you somehow referring to Baha'u'llah?

I'm only here at the tail end of the conversation, and haven't followed the whole thread from start to finish, but if all we're trying to do is be on the same page regarding the Presence of this aspect of our nature, then surely the point is to agree and not quibble over terminologies or subtleties.

I can agree with that statement. First, this thread has nothing to do with the topic in hand, but, as I said earlier, I find it interesting and am willing to respond to it. As you said, if all we are trying to do is be on the same page regarding the Presence (Soul? is that what you are meaning?) of this aspect of our nature...then I am a happy being.

Baha'u'llah's message is not more superior than those of the other Manifestations. It is just the most recent. This aspect of it, the recognition of the soul and its role in our life, came from Baha'u'llah. For me to ignore the source of this wonderful bit of information, would be for me to lie. For anybody else to claim that we, mankind, awakened to this knowledge at some other time than the present is not knowledgable of history. Should I simply satisfy everybodies vain imaginings, so as to keep the peace by saying, yes, this did come from other teachings, even though there is nobody that has been able to explain the soul from any religion in such a truthful and acceptable manner as Baha'u'llah did? If I allowed these claims to stand, then I would not be concerned with whether you are aware of the concepts providence and that isn't true, The source is as important as the knowledge.

IN a Christian perspective, we might say ... that the only reason Christ was even able to do His work to begin with, was because of the presence of this Higher Aspect of our nature -> St. Paul's `Christ within, the Hope of Glory.' It was by the stimulation of this same nature within us - as yet undeveloped and unperfected, which in Christ's own nature was fully developed and perfected. This statement of Paul's offers at one & the same time, the explanation of our relationship to Christ, as well as our hope for the future, as we become more Christlike. It also shows that Christ's work 2,000 years ago (and that of other prophets since) was not simply to plant new seeds (i.e., Teachings), but also to water the existing seed of our spiritual nature(s) - present from all time (the Indwelling Christ).

Whatever Christ did was truly as God wished it to be. Of course He would have the same knowledge as all the Manifestations. Remember He said He had many things to share with us that we could not bear...Simply because He didn't tell us doesn't mean He didn't have the knowledge of the soul. He gave us as much as we were able to accept, it would seem.

Every great teacher, according to this principle, of whatever Faith, would work in the same way, his or her Highest Nature stimulating that within his or followers ... while those with unperfected natures will also stimulate the lower aspects of their followers' natures - and this explains the many failures, the false prophets (well-intentioned, but not truly capable of leading), and the simply deluded.

andrew

I have no idea what you mean here. What to you is a Great Teacher? Which principle are you referring too? Are you referring to the Manifestations of God, all of those we know of and all of those that have been forgotten? What is meant by his or her Highest Nature? For that matter what does "stimulating that within" mean?

Again, I am not trying to argue. But I don't get it. If I don't understand, I will usually ask for an explanation.

Mick

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Mick

This aspect of it, the recognition of the soul and its role in our life, came from Baha'u'llah. For me to ignore the source of this wonderful bit of information, would be for me to lie. For anybody else to claim that we, mankind, awakened to this knowledge at some other time than the present is not knowledgable of history.

Ummm, really?

37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[a]

I'm pretty sure I don't need to tell you that Jesus is quoting Deuteronomy here.

peace,
lunamoth

[Mick]

Lunamoth wrote:

"Not sure what point you are making by emphasizing the word 'if' here."

Well, that the "spirit", as Paul explains it, does not dwell within us, but is imbued or installed in us, as you pointed out in your belief, at baptism. Back to the original statement that suggested that we follow God's laws from the spirit that dwells within us. Paul was very adamant, it seems, that only if you accept Jesus/God will this happen.

Lunamoth wrote:

"The "installation" of the Spirit, as you put, is associated with baptism, in my understanding. Yet, as you point out, the Spirit apparently can be veiled or blocked out even in baptized believers, by an act of will."

Well, that follows what Paul said in the previous paragraph. Am to understand, you believe the spirit does not exist within us until Baptism by a priest/minister?

Lunamoth wrote:

"I'm not sure where you get the idea that Christians do not believe that we are born with, conceived with, a soul. At baptism we die and are reborn in Christ, or born again. Thus, all baptized Christians are born again. I don't believe that the Holy Spirit is limited and while baptism by water is an outward sign of an inner reality, I believe the Spirit reaches all people who reach for Her. I've seen people from many different religions, and no religion, glowing with the power of the Spirit."

I get the idea from Christians; all the many and varied Christians I encounter in this Christian society I live in. I have heard that children or adults that haven't been baptized will go to hell if they die. I have also heard that isn't so, because a just God wouldn't do such a thing. I really don't know of a central dogma concerning the soul and Christianity. I am only aware of a lot of different concepts that are dogmattically defended by the thousands of different Christian sects.

I have never heard that all baptized Christians are born again. It's a nice thought, but I am not aware of this principle of any Christian church I ever attended or heard of. I have many Catholic friends that surely wouldn't accept this statement. I have some evangelical friends that would question who is doing the baptizing and how it is done, such as full immersion or sprinkling before they would pass judgement on the health of a persons soul.

I too believe that God accepts all who recognizes Him and I too, have seen that glow and have felt that spiritual power that throbs from a person that is on fire with the love of God.

I am curious what Synod do you come from, if that isn't too nosey or breaking some sort of board rule. Your belief system is interesting, to say the least.

And being a Baha'i, I must include the obligatory quote from 'Abdu'l-Baha,

"Other peoples are amazed and wonder why the infant is plunged into the water, since this is neither the cause of the spiritual awakening of the child, nor of its faith or conversion, but it is only a custom which is followed. In the time of John the Baptist it was not so; no, at first John used to exhort the people, and to guide them to repentance from sin, and to fill them with the desire to await the manifestation of Christ. Whoever received the ablution of baptism, and repented of sins in absolute humility and meekness, would also purify and cleanse his body from outward impurities. With perfect yearning, night and day, he would constantly wait for the manifestation of Christ, and the entrance to the Kingdom of the Spirit of God."

This would seem to be an explanation of baptism that I can accept.

Mick

[Mick]

I'm pretty sure I don't need to tell you that Jesus is quoting Deuteronomy here.

peace,
lunamoth

Well, thank you for the quote. But are you suggesting that since Jesus mentioned the soul, which I would surely agree He had knowledge of, then there was a general understanding of the soul and its role in our everyday life? You know better than that. I didn't say that Baha'u'llah invented the word. I said He reminded us of its existence and taught us how to nourish it and to heed its directions. Again, I am not aware of this direction being shared by any other Manifestation. This part of the Progressive Revelation of God.

Another example may help. Thomas Jefferson wrote in the Declaration of Independence,

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

These are great words and show a genuine concern for mankind and, yet, Thomas Jefferson was a slave owner. So maybe the words were for the white Europeans that ran that area of North America at that time. The words and the ideas have been around for eons, but until God, through one of His Manifestations, shares it as an expectation, it is no more than lofty words. So in 1863, Baha'u'llah declared His mission and stated the principles that would help create a New World Order. One of these principles was the Oneness of Mankind. He said, "We are the fruits of one tree, the leaves of one branch, the drops of one wave..." Since then, we, as mankind have been struggling to accept that principle. We are in a learning phase and just in the past 50 years I have been able to observe, I have seen awareness of Equality of Mankind. Never before in the history of mankind has this happened. Our history across all the continents have been of division, by class, race, ethnicity, sex, wealth, etc. Today, we are starting to see an awareness of the harm that comes from that sort of thinking and the Oneness of Mankind is slowly unfolding.

Did Baha'u'llah invent it? Of course not as I pointed out in the Declaration of Independence. Why is the world all of a sudden accepting it? We believe it is God's will and after His most recent Manifestation announced it, mankind started implementing it.

warmly,

Mick

[Mick]

I am done for the evening. I will be back tomorrow. As we say in the Baha'i Faith Allah'u'Abha..."God is most Glorious"

Mick

[BruceDLimber]

Hi again! :-)

Originally Posted by InChristAlways

Didn't God talk more against the Priesthood/Shepherds of His flock in the OT than any other "class" of people?

Arguably so in the case of the Old and New Testaments, and definitely so in the Baha'i scriptures, especially in The Book of Certitude!

Which is one of the reasons why we Baha'is have no clergy or hierarchy whatever! Everyone is "just a Baha'i," and our administrative bodies are filled by members elected democratically without politics (no nominations, campaigning, or discussion of individual personalities).

(The other reason, for the record, is that our scriptures say humanity is now entering young adulthood, so that each person can investigate the truth for him- or herself and decide what path to follow, so that we no longer need someone to make our decisions for us....)

Works well for us! :-)

Best,

Bruce

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Mick

Lunamoth wrote:

"Not sure what point you are making by emphasizing the word 'if' here."

Well, that the "spirit", as Paul explains it, does not dwell within us, but is imbued or installed in us, as you pointed out in your belief, at baptism. Back to the original statement that suggested that we follow God's laws from the spirit that dwells within us. Paul was very adamant, it seems, that only if you accept Jesus/God will this happen.

You seem to suggest that our soul and the Holy Spirit are one and the same, and that we are some kind of souless body when we are born. I can only guess that you get this from some kind of literal reading of Paul. I read lots of things in Paul, and the idea of "accepting" Jesus has many depths of meaning. Maybe you could show me where you get this particular interpretation?

Lunamoth wrote:

"The "installation" of the Spirit, as you put, is associated with baptism, in my understanding. Yet, as you point out, the Spirit apparently can be veiled or blocked out even in baptized believers, by an act of will."

Well, that follows what Paul said in the previous paragraph. Am to understand, you believe the spirit does not exist within us until Baptism by a priest/minister?

My understanding is that we gain a special relationship with the Holy Spirit at baptsim. In our catechism we say: We recognize the presence of the Holy Spirit when we confess Jesus Christ as Lord and are brought into love and harmony with God, with ourselves, with our neighbors, and with all creation.

The priest/minister is not necesssary, although it is usually the case. Baptism can be done by any other baptized person. Priests perform a service, have a role, in Christianity, just as the Baha'i Institutions do in the Baha'i Faith. However, they are not intermediaries between people and God.

Lunamoth wrote:

"I'm not sure where you get the idea that Christians do not believe that we are born with, conceived with, a soul. At baptism we die and are reborn in Christ, or born again. Thus, all baptized Christians are born again. I don't believe that the Holy Spirit is limited and while baptism by water is an outward sign of an inner reality, I believe the Spirit reaches all people who reach for Her. I've seen people from many different religions, and no religion, glowing with the power of the Spirit."

I get the idea from Christians; all the many and varied Christians I encounter in this Christian society I live in. I have heard that children or adults that haven't been baptized will go to hell if they die. I have also heard that isn't so, because a just God wouldn't do such a thing. I really don't know of a central dogma concerning the soul and Christianity. I am only aware of a lot of different concepts that are dogmattically defended by the thousands of different Christian sects.

Well, for sure different Christians understand and believe differently about lots of things, but I never heard one say we are born without a soul! Unfortuantely some emphasize a literal understanding of hell and torment, but I don't know where the Bible it says you go to hell for not being baptized. Not part of the Nicene Creed or the catechism, either. I don't believe in hell as a literal place, but as distance from God.

I have never heard that all baptized Christians are born again. It's a nice thought, but I am not aware of this principle of any Christian church I ever attended or heard of. I have many Catholic friends that surely wouldn't accept this statement.

I'm pretty sure that any Catholic familiar with their catechism would agree that they are born again when baptized. But it is true that the phrase "born again" has taken some connotations not everyone wants to be associated with.

I have some evangelical friends that would question who is doing the baptizing and how it is done, such as full immersion or sprinkling before they would pass judgement on the health of a persons soul.

Well, what can I say but that I view this differently. Any baptized person from any denomination can take communion in my church. Any person baptized or not can worship with us.

I too believe that God accepts all who recognizes Him and I too, have seen that glow and have felt that spiritual power that throbs from a person that is on fire with the love of God.

We are one body, one soul.

I am curious what Synod do you come from, if that isn't too nosey or breaking some sort of board rule. Your belief system is interesting, to say the least.

I am a baptized and practicing Episcopalian.

And being a Baha'i, I must include the obligatory quote from 'Abdu'l-Baha,

"Other peoples are amazed and wonder why the infant is plunged into the water, since this is neither the cause of the spiritual awakening of the child, nor of its faith or conversion, but it is only a custom which is followed. In the time of John the Baptist it was not so; no, at first John used to exhort the people, and to guide them to repentance from sin, and to fill them with the desire to await the manifestation of Christ. Whoever received the ablution of baptism, and repented of sins in absolute humility and meekness, would also purify and cleanse his body from outward impurities. With perfect yearning, night and day, he would constantly wait for the manifestation of Christ, and the entrance to the Kingdom of the Spirit of God."

This would seem to be an explanation of baptism that I can accept.

Mick

Certainly, and being a Christian I believe it is much more than a custom.

Matthew 3:11 NIV
"I baptize you with [ Or in] water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire."

But I would agree with Abdul Baha that the repentence, meekness, humility and purity are baptismal gifts.

peace,
Laurie

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

so that we no longer need someone to make our decisions for us....)

biting tongue, biting tongue, biting tongue....

just kidding with you, Bruce!

luna

[InChristAlways]

The priest/minister is not necesssary, although it is usually the case. Baptism can be done by any other baptized person. Priests perform a service, have a role, in Christianity, just as the Baha'i Institutions do in the Baha'i Faith. However, they are not intermediaries between people and God.

Matthew 3:11 NIV
"I baptize you with [ Or in] water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire."

But I would agree with Abdul Baha that the repentence, meekness, humility and purity are baptismal gifts.

What was the purpose of Jesus being baptized by JTB?
Could it have been symbolizing the washing in the laver that the priests performed in the OT, as Jesus did become our "High Priest" and had to fulfill all the OT types and shadows as depicted in the Torah?

The Spirit like a dove coming down appears to symbolize that Jesus had been accepted by the Father of being able to enter the Tabernacle, wherein lie the holy and holy of holies. He in essence became a "human Tabernacle" in contrast to the jewish "earthly Taberncle", in which God would dwell within mankind through the Holy Spirit?
Just one way of viewing it.

Matthew 3:15 But Jesus answering said to him, `Suffer now, for thus it is becoming to us to fulfil [#4137] all righteousness [#1343],' then he doth suffer him.

Exodus 40:7 and hast put the laver between the tent of meeting and the altar, and hast put water there.

Having entered through the Door into the Tabernacle's Outer Court, the priests had to wash their hands and feet at the Laver before they could either enter into the Sanctuary Building or make any offering to the Lord at the Burnt Offering Altar. God warned Moses that if the priests did not wash they would die (Exodus 30:20-21).

Hebrews 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider the apostle and chief priest of our profession, Christ Jesus,

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by InChristAlways

Hebrews 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider the apostle and chief priest of our profession, Christ Jesus...

Contrary to a comment earlier, Baha'is believe if we shared quotations from scripture, at least with an intent to learn and appreciate and respect, *rather than our own interpritations* then we would have fewer arguments.

Baha'is beleive we also stand in need of the Priesthood of God, just not of our fellow man. Or woman.

[I, Brian]

Hi InChristAlways - please take note of my PM to you a few days ago - your current posting on this board comes across as evangelising to another religion.

[InChristAlways]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Hi InChristAlways - please take note of my PM to you a few days ago - your current posting on this board comes across as evangelising to another religion.

Hi Brian. I am away from my home for the holidays and just read your message and responded with an apology.

The study of Sriptures is a "retirement hobby" of mine and I love getting others views on the Bible without appearing to "evangelize".
Sorry about that brother.
Steve

[BruceDLimber]

Hi! :-)

Originally Posted by InChristAlways

The study of Sriptures is a "retirement hobby" of mine, and I love ge tting others views on the Bible without appearing to "evangelize."

Well, in that case, please permit me to say that Baha'is--all of us the world over--accept and believe in both Christ and the Bible, and view the Bible as legitimate, God-sent scripture (containing many prophecies about the coming of the Baha'i Faith), though what we follow directly is our own Baha'i scriptures.

Best,

Bruce

[Seeker_of_truth]

Originally Posted by Mick

Nope, wasn't my intention. What I did was list some of the principles of the Baha'i Faith. You had mentioned that you took issue of certain things regarding the Baha'i Faith and the principles are about all that matters. Of course, I didn't list all of them, but I am still interested in what issues you take with Baha'is?

I once made a list describing each of the major Manifestations with a single word, describing Their core message. Let me try to do this from memory:

Abraham - Covenant
Moses - Laws
Jesus - Forgiveness
The Buddha - Soul
Krshna - Godhead
Zoroaster - Spirituality
Mohammed - Order (Civil)
The Bab - Hope
Baha'u'llah - Unity

Now if I truly believe the core message of Baha'u'llah is unity, and I do, and you say you take issues with the Baha'i Faith, and you have, then I am interested in what the issues are, particularly if they involve any of the promised unities.

Mick

Thanks Mick for supplying this list. I think ill use it for future teaching oportunities.

-Seeker