Abrahamic? Am I missing the meaning? - Page 2

Bandit · 12-04-2005, 02:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smkolins

I think others have already said what has to be said and see no progress in this thread any more. If you want to read about Baha'i views about Buddha they've been covered in a few other threads. If you want to see about Abrahamic vs Modern, it's been done in several threads. If you want to talk about unfair comparisons and the place of information in changing people's minds and what kind of standard is allowed around here it's in several threads already.

Let's keep what levels of participation we can maintain going.

is the answer to my question about it covered there?
where?
thanks smkolins.

smkolins · 12-04-2005, 05:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bandit

is the answer to my question about it covered there?
where?
thanks smkolins.

Yes it's been discussed.

There are twleve pages on a thread here much of it about how Baha'is consider Buddha a Manifestation when the nominal pov of Buddhism is there is no god. Buddhism and the Baha'i Faith have been a topic in three threads as I recall. Each time it got into this issue one way or another.

Yaqinud Din · 12-04-2005, 05:49 AM

Bandit from the Baha'es I have talked with they have a very weak answer for the Buddha question. Them trying to make Buddha one of their Prophets is like trying hit a square Peg in a round hole.

Tao_Equus · 12-04-2005, 06:12 AM

Bites on tounge.

Bandit · 12-04-2005, 07:03 AM

thanks smkolins & everyone. i will have a look at the 12 pages.

i guess my point is not just the buddha within the Bahai religion, but maybe if we all would start admitting (& i do mean in all religions, including the scientists & politicans & my very own brothers in Christianity) would admit that there are things in our religions & beliefs that we just do not have all the answers for, & some of the doctrines just do not add up, then maybe the few who are willing to do that would become closer & the few who are really searching would be able to see more together.

IOW- if i give an inch is something, will you meet me on your end?

not saying we have to give up the basic foundation of our faith in God.
but it cant be done if we keep insisiting we are the only ones. the older i get the more gray i see & the more i have to say, "I cant say that is for sure".

i dont expect it to change in the radical sense because we are only human & we have fears & wonders & no one wants to be lied to any more.
i guess i still have hope, & i say it because CR offers a pretty good opportunity for us to try.

Mick · 12-04-2005, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bandit

thanks smkolins & everyone. i will have a look at the 12 pages.

i guess my point is not just the buddha within the Bahai religion, but maybe if we all would start admitting (& i do mean in all religions, including the scientists & politicans & my very own brothers in Christianity) would admit that there are things in our religions & beliefs that we just do not have all the answers for, & some of the doctrines just do not add up, then maybe the few who are willing to do that would become closer & the few who are really searching would be able to see more together.

IOW- if i give an inch is something, will you meet me on your end?

not saying we have to give up the basic foundation of our faith in God.
but it cant be done if we keep insisiting we are the only ones. the older i get the more gray i see & the more i have to say, "I cant say that is for sure".

i dont expect it to change in the radical sense because we are only human & we have fears & wonders & no one wants to be lied to any more.
i guess i still have hope, & i say it because CR offers a pretty good opportunity for us to try.

I like that Bandit. I like that a lot. I'll give more than an inch. In fact, as you can see in an earlier post, I am willing to say, "I don't know." Usually, the dogma of a religion causes the confusion. The Manifestations, Themselves, speak from God. Their message is normally clear. Confusion comes aboard when man decides to explain the meaning. This is why "self-investigation" for the truth is so important.

Mick

Tao_Equus · 12-04-2005, 02:22 PM

You may say you give an inch Mick but I still see no appology for your tone and attitude in the original post. That still shouts louder than what you say now.

TE

Mick · 12-04-2005, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

You may say you give an inch Mick but I still see no appology for your tone and attitude in the original post. That still shouts louder than what you say now.

TE

Apology?...Choke, cough (as my coffee came out my nose). You have to be kidding. What I haven't received is an explanation. Again, if Abrahamic means from Abrahams line then both The Bab and Baha'u'llah fit the title of the section. If it means something else, then please explain. The tone and attitude from my original post is my response to being spit at as a Baha'i.

Shame on you to ask for an apology from me, at this point. How rude and typically thread/topic changing.

Mick

Tao_Equus · 12-04-2005, 03:30 PM

It was very clearly explained. Baha'i is a MODERN religeon. That you are personaly put out by this will not change that fact. Baha'i is not up there, yet, with the 3 great pillars of Abrahamic monotheisms and could not claim such a place till not only had it stood the test of several 100 years, but had also gained the popularity the others enjoy. Insulting the creator of this exceptional forum also will not change that.

TE

Note: I did not ask for an apology, merely commented that I had not seen one. Additionaly you talk that Baha'i does not 'recruit' but allows folks to find them. So why on your profile does it state you are doing precisely that? Seems to me you sing 2 songs, the effect is dischordant (sic).

Mick · 12-04-2005, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

It was very clearly explained. Baha'i is a MODERN religeon. That you are personaly put out by this will not change that fact. Baha'i is not up there, yet, with the 3 great pillars of Abrahamic monotheisms and could not claim such a place till not only had it stood the test of several 100 years, but had also gained the popularity the others enjoy. Insulting the creator of this exceptional forum also will not change that.

TE

This is becoming personal and maybe we should go to PM. I have no problem keeping it public, but, on most of the forums I message on, moderators usually take umbrage. You decide.

It was not clearly explained, friend, and putting the word modern in all caps, as if to state it louder, does not make it any clearer. Let me give you an example.

Suppose you lived in a community that claimed to practice unity and love and forthrightness and you were also the member of a minority race, religion, ethnic group, etc,..you pick. The community threw a party and invited everybody. When you arrived, you were told to enter through the back door and go to a little closet room where a couple of others, like yourself, were already there. And while the rest of the community interacted and enjoyed, you sat with a couple of other outcasts, twiddling your thumbs. When you try to enter the main party, somebody quickly points out, hey, you're not one of us. You haven't earned the right to be with us righteous ones and are quickly pushed back in the closet. Unfortunately, some of the 'regular' group keep sticking their heads into your closet and taunt you. Ha Ha, you can't come to the party.

Are you getting the picture? You should be by now. Again, if Abrahamic means from the seed of Abraham, then The Bab and Baha'u'llah, the Prophet/Founders of the Baha'i Faith, fit that definition and by this definition should be included in the main party.

Quote:

Note: I did not ask for an apology, merely commented that I had not seen one. Additionaly you talk that Baha'i does not 'recruit' but allows folks to find them. So why on your profile does it state you are doing precisely that? Seems to me you sing 2 songs, the effect is dischordant (sic).

Of course you asked for an apology. What else could that mean? Why deny what is obvious. My profile, TE, does not mention recruit, recruitment, recruiter and any shape, way or fashion. There is not a function in the Baha'i Faith that would fit these terms. My profile says I am a travel teacher. It simply means that if Baha'is in some part of the world other than my home community need a public speaker, I am willing to travel to speak at a public function. A teacher, in the Baha'i Faith, really functions as an answerer. We respond to questions seekers may have. We do no proselytize. We simply attend a public meeting, where people that are interested in finding out more about the Baha'i Faith may come.

By the way, I looked at your profile as well. I noticed you joined this forum October 20, 2005 and you already have 233 posts for an average of 5.18 posts per day.That is only 45 days. You either have a lot to say, or not much to say but like to say it a lot. From the couple of posts I have read, I would favor the latter.

Mick

smkolins · 12-04-2005, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bandit

thanks smkolins & everyone. i will have a look at the 12 pages.
...
IOW- if i give an inch is something, will you meet me on your end?

not saying we have to give up the basic foundation of our faith in God.
but it cant be done if we keep insisiting we are the only ones. the older i get the more gray i see & the more i have to say, "I cant say that is for sure".

i dont expect it to change in the radical sense because we are only human & we have fears & wonders & no one wants to be lied to any more.
i guess i still have hope, & i say it because CR offers a pretty good opportunity for us to try.

Maybe. I think some people treat bridges of understandings as openings for invasion and warfare. Over my years I've built many bridges. I (and a few others) had a long exchange with fundamentalist christians that I think surprised both sides. We came away both sides learning something and gaining some respect for the other side - even if we continued to very clearly disagree about a very great deal.

But other times, not so distant or far away, some have felt that stated positions were nothing but insulting, and were motivated by ignorance, lies, or stupdity and said so repeatedly. For now at least I've had my fill of it and try to make my way here without getting into such discussions and I know I'm not alone. I've appreciated your posts and I think you've appreciated mine. But we aren't alone here. And any time a discussion breaks out Someone Gets Upset and Things Happen. And I don't mean God. I've participated in quite a few discussion areas before and since the internet and thank you kept my nose pretty clean but some of the things we've had happen in the Baha'i area here have NEVER happened anywhere else (and I'm not just talking about me here), in addition to a few things that have and always seem to draw more smoke than light because people intensely differ about some subjects because of their own personal experience and history into the situation. Then we have to be careful with the details of one person and their views as well as the overall situation and really it tends to break down pretty quickly then.

smkolins · 12-04-2005, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick

It was not clearly explained

I suggest this thread - http://www.comparative-religion.com/...ead.php?t=3787

Popeyesays · 12-04-2005, 05:55 PM

Well, There was a time when Abraham's words were new teachings. There was a time when Moses was a new Prophet, that did not mean He was not part of the Abrahamic line. There was a time when David was a new King, but He was still in the line of Abraham's seed.

When Christ walked this world, He was a newcomer, but He still traced His message to David's Psalms, Moses' Torah and to the line of Abraham.

Same for Muhammed. Same for Zoroaster. Same for Krishna for that matter. To be in the Abrahamic genealogy merely requires that Abraham be one of your thousands of great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandparents. Eventually it comes to the fact that its hard to avoid having Abraham in your lineage.

More important by far is the spiritual lineage. Moses said He was a bearer of Revelation from the God Who revealed Himself to Abraha. Jesus says the same. Muhammed says the same. the Bab is a descendant of Muhammed both physically and spiritually, and Baha`u'llah is a descendant of Moses through the line of David and of Zoroaster through the Sassanid Kings of Persia. So the Baha`i Faith is spiritually and genealogically an Abrahamic Faith. Brian's and Tao Equus' points of view are irrelevant to the fact.

You can continue to segregate it. There are three interfaith dialogue forums using V-bulletin. Three weeks ago two of those forae actually put the Baha`i Faith into "Modern Religions". A simple explanation of the facts of descent sufficed to change the minds of the moderators of one of those two and the Baha`i board was moved back to Abrahamic faiths where it belongs.

If Brian chooses not to do so, that's fine - he owns and PAYS for this board. It is his chattel under the law and under any sense of fair play. I accept that and stay anyway. That being said, it does not mean he is not in error, and that error creates a chafe within some patrons of the board. They own and pay for their own feelings (karmically, if not monetarily) and it is their right to follow their own conviction.

I note that Yaqinud din came over to another forum (Religious Education) for no other purpose than to goad Bruce into making some comment here that would get him in trouble. I can post the messages here if anyone is interested.

Regards,
Scott

smkolins · 12-04-2005, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Additionaly you talk that Baha'i does not 'recruit' but allows folks to find them. So why on your profile does it state you are doing precisely that?

For what it's worth another pov on his profile is that it is perfectly normal and not "recruiting". He travels and speaks where he has a chance and I doubt very much it has any semblance to a street agitator. Probably he visits in peoples homes and talks to people invited.

As for a "weak" response, I don't know what you know or don't, but what is weak about questioning the validity of the modern teachings of a religion? Buddha and God seem remote to you? How about Trinitarianism?! There is one primary criticism the Baha'i Faith has of the other religions, and who is responsible, and it stands in good stead - "I came not to destroy, but to fullfill." indeed. There are no scriptures that do not comment and or correct the views of other religions. Can there be a stronger position to make work? But if we dwell on such matters it sounds like Baha'is have nothing to say but ill of other religions - when in fact we spend almost all our time affirming their Author, their Exponents, the Scriptures, and their early heroes - and indeed drifting from this emphasis is something not condoned in our own scriptures! "O people! consort with the followers of all religions in a spirit of friendliness...."

smkolins · 12-04-2005, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

There are three interfaith dialogue forums using V-bulletin. Three weeks ago two of those forae actually put the Baha`i Faith into "Modern Religions". A simple explanation of the facts of descent sufficed to change the minds of the moderators of one of those two and the Baha`i board was moved back to Abrahamic faiths where it belongs.

So that's where you've been. :-) A typo above (I think you mean they moved it [bold]out[/bold] of the "Modern Religions" section.) This kind of response is typical of most interfaith discussion areas - where a stated position attributed to the Baha'i Faith is explained and corrected. As for the Abrahamic section here, it bears reading the sub-title. Baha'is might read it thinking all we have to do is correct this misunderstanding - that the only Abrahamic religions are Judaism, Christian, and Islam, but that explanation has been gone through.