Abraham est. Mecca, the Qu'ran bids no-entry for non-Muslims yet Guru Nanak visited?

[Samuel Linton Boot]

Originally Posted by ma70

If they believed that at Muhammad was a prophet and that at a certain time his teachings were right, then they should know that his teachings dictated that he was the last prophet sent by God, which no prophet claimed before (up to my personal knowledge). He also taught that any new innovations in religions are not accepted.

I have trouble with this. I cannot accept Muhammed (PBUH) meant what he said in the way in which you understand, just as I cannot accept Jesus (PBUH) said that the only way to the Father is through him. Perhaps these words were meant for those actually present before them and not for the whole of mankind forever.

How do you define a Prophet? Does a Prophet have more or less authority than a Saint?

"The messenger believes, as do the faithful, in what God has revealed to him from his Lord. Each one believes in God, his angels, his books, and his messengers, without making any distinction between any of his messengers. They say, "We hear and we obey. Grant us, Lord, your forgiveness for to you is the ultimate return." (Qur'aan 2:285)

[InChristAlways]

As they pass through the valley of Baca [#1056], they set a fountain of springs; the former rains cover it with blessings." 7 They go from strength to strength ; [Each one] appears before God in Zion.

1056 Baka' baw-kaw' from 1058, weeping; Baca, a valley in Palestine:--Baca. 1058 bakah baw-kaw' a primitive root; to weep; generally to bemoan:--X at all, bewail, complain, make lamentation, X more, mourn, X sore, X with tears, weep.

Originally Posted by Samuel Linton Boot

I was quoting the book mentioned in the original post. So I am not sure but in the course of answering your post I have looked at the relevant passage in the bible and searched 'Valley of Baca' on the web. Indeed the bible passage says pilgrims passed through the valley of Baca on their way to Mount Zion, however there is no valley in Palestine called Baca simply speculation that there might have been one there in the past. So it seems the Valley of Baca, mentioned in the Psalms, probaly does refer to the Valley of Bakkah, which later became known as Makkah, as there is no known alternative location posited.

I am always more curious when a form of the word is only used one time in the Bible such as this one:

There is one verse containing the word Baka' (Strong's 01056) .

So I look up how the root of that word is used in the rest of the OT and wonder why it is used as a form of "weeping/wailing".

Jeremiah 9:1 Who doth make my head waters, And mine eye a fountain of tears? And I weep [#1058] by day and by night, For the wounded of the daughter of my people.

Why would the sons/children of Israel and Judah go "weeping" to seek the Lord God [Mt Zion?] and what does "those day" signify? [translations may vary]

(Young LT) Jeremiah 50:4 In those days, and at that time, An affirmation of Jehovah, Come in do sons of Israel, They and sons of Judah together, Going on and weeping[#1058] they go, And Jehovah their God they seek.

Joel 1:5 Awake, ye drunkards, and weep [#1058], And howl all drinking wine, because of the new wine, For it hath been cut off from your mouth.

1058 bakah baw-kaw' a primitive root; to weep; generally to bemoan:--X at all, bewail, complain, make lamentation, X more, mourn, X sore, X with tears, weep.

[mansio]

3emeq haBakha' (not Baka') means "valley of the Balsam Tree". It's a valley that lead to the Western Gate of Jerusalem. It was the last stage for pilgrims going to the Temple.

[InChristAlways]

Jeremiah 9:1 Who doth make my head waters, And mine eye a fountain of tears? And I weep [#1058] by day and by night, For the wounded of the daughter of my people.

Why would the sons/children of Israel and Judah go "weeping" to seek the Lord God [Mt Zion?] and what does "those day" signify? [translations may vary]

(Young LT) Jeremiah 50:4 In those days, and at that time, An affirmation of Jehovah, Come in do sons of Israel, They and sons of Judah together, Going on and weeping [#1058] they go, And Jehovah their God they seek.

Joel 1:5 Awake, ye drunkards, and weep [#1058], And howl all drinking wine, because of the new wine, For it hath been cut off from your mouth.

Originally Posted by mansio

3emeq haBakha' (not Baka') means "valley of the Balsam Tree". It's a valley that lead to the Western Gate of Jerusalem. It was the last stage for pilgrims going to the Temple.

Thanks mansio. Almost sounds like the "weeping" willow tree

Perhaps it is "symbolic", as the jews do weep at the "wailing wall" in Jerusalem for the loss of their Temple and Tabernacle destroyed through God in the first century?
Steve

http://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html

1057 baka' baw-kaw' the same as 1056; the weeping tree (some gum- distilling tree, perhaps the balsam):--mulberry tree. AV - mulberry tree 4; 4
1) balsam tree - a shrub which drips sap

1058 bakah baw-kaw' a primitive root; to weep; generally to bemoan:--X at all, bewail, complain, make lamentation, X more, mourn, X sore, X with tears, weep.

of Baca 01056 Baka' {baw-kaw'} from 01058;; n pr loc AV - Baca 1; 1
Baca = "weeping"
1) a valley in Palestine

[mansio]

The valley of Bakha' has nothing to do with weeping.

To weep is bakhah a word built on a B-K-H consonant root.

Bakha' the balsam tree is built on a B-K-' consonant root.

[InChristAlways]

Why would the sons/children of Israel and Judah go "weeping" to seek the Lord God [Mt Zion?] and what does "those day" signify? [translations may vary]

(Young LT) Jeremiah 50:4 In those days, and at that time, An affirmation of Jehovah, Come in do sons of Israel, They and sons of Judah together, Going on and weeping [#1058] they go, And Jehovah their God they seek.

Joel 1:5 Awake, ye drunkards, and weep [#1058], And howl all drinking wine, because of the new wine, For it hath been cut off from your mouth.

Originally Posted by mansio

Originally Posted by mansio
3emeq haBakha' (not Baka') means "valley of the Balsam Tree". It's a valley that lead to the Western Gate of Jerusalem. It was the last stage for pilgrims going to the Temple.

The valley of Bakha' has nothing to do with weeping.

To weep is bakhah a word built on a B-K-H consonant root.

Bakha' the balsam tree is built on a B-K-' consonant root.

Thanks mansio. Nice to have someone that knows the Hebrew.
Btw, do you or anyone else have a personal translation of Daniel 11 handy, as that chapter is translated in so many various ways, I am having a little trouble with it?
Thanks.

Daniel 11:1 And I, in year one to Darius["Lord"] the Mede["middle land"] to stand me, to make strong and to protect him. 2 And now truth I shall tell to you. Behold! Yet 3 Kings, ones standing to Persia ["pure] , and the 4th he shall be richer [in] great riches than all. And as to be strenghthed in his riches, he shall arouse/raise up all the Kingdom of Javan [Zech 9:13].

Zechariah 9:13 For I have trodden for Me Judah, A bow I have filled [with] Ephraim, And I have stirred up thy sons, O Zion, Against thy sons, O Javan, And I have set thee as the sword of a hero.

[Samuel Linton Boot]

Thanks, thought you might be interested in this:

BACA, THE VALLEY OF:


By : Morris Jastrow Jr. Frants Buhl


A valley mentioned in Ps. lxxxiv. 7 [6 A. V.]. Since it is there said that pilgrims transform the valley into a land of wells, the old translators gave to "Baca" the meaning of a "valley of weeping"; but it signifies rather any valley lacking water. Support for this latter view is to be found in II Sam. v. 23 et seq.; I Chron. xiv. 14 et seq., in which the plural form of the same word designates a tree similar to the balsam-tree; and it was supposed that a dry valley could be named after this tree. König takes "Baca" from the Arabian "baka'a," and translates it "lacking in streams." The Psalmist apparently has in mind a particular valley whose natural condition led him to adopt its name



http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/vi...id=56&letter=B

[Friend]

however there is no valley in Palestine called Baca simply speculation that there might have been one there in the past. So it seems the Valley of Baca, mentioned in the Psalms, probaly does refer to the Valley of Bakkah, which later became known as Makkah, as there is no known alternative location posited.

I Think this is very important information

Thanks a lot

[mansio]

That is ridiculous information. Makka/Bakka is over one thousand kilometers away from Palestine. Semitic languages are often close from one another so it is not extraordinary to find similar names, even with similar signification. It does not mean the places are the same.

The only thing which is shown by those speculations is that some people are desperately trying to find non-existent proofs to substantiate the Quran. The same vain efforts are made concerning, for example, the iron wall of Zul Qarnain or Noah's ark.

[inhumility]

Originally Posted by Samuel Linton Boot

How do Muslims regard Guru Nanakji today?

I am an Ahmadi, a faith in Islam. We believe, as per the extensive and intensive research conducted by the founder of our faith i.e. by Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (1835-1908) who lived in Punjab, India; and he wrote a book on life history of Guru Nanak titled “Satt-Bachan”. The book is in Urdu language. Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has given some irrefutable arguments proving that Hazrat Baba Guru Nanak though was son of poor Hindu parents but from very early childhood he was raised and educated in a pious Muslim family. So, Hazrat Baba Guru Nanak got converted, rather raised as a Muslim. Hence he performed Hajj of Mecca two times. He had following in both Hindus and Muslims as a saint, and when he died his Muslim followers secretly with the permission of his family took away his body and buried him as per the Muslim tradition. This was kept secret from his Hindu followers for obvious reasons, who were told that his body has been raised to heaven.
This is as per the book “Satt-Bachan” and no offence is intended to anybody believing otherwise. This is in short and details can be provided if needed by any member, please.
Thanks

[cyberpi]

The heart of the matter of this thread as I read it is:

Why, how, and who judges a person is a Muslim or a non-Muslim?

Avoid the shibboleths of men and their ancestors and simply ask, "Who is the righteous judge of whether or not you believe in God?" If the answer is anyone or anything besides God (Allah swt), then you are NOT in the presence of Muslims who would submit to God... proceed with caution.

Alternatively you could try to test someone who openly judges or condemns whether or not a person is Muslim or non-Muslim by applying the test to every prophet in the Qur'an from Ibrahim (Abraham, pbuh) to Isa (Jesus Christ, pbuh), and Muhammud (pbuh), because Islam by the Qur'an makes no distinction between them. If the criteria would exclude one of them and call them non-Muslim, then the criteria is faulty and was invented by men. That is subject to interpretation or belief unless you knew a prophet personally, but Ibrahim (pbuh) never knew Muhammud (pbuh) in life, and might find it hard to call him the last, unless God told him so. I'd stick with the first... who is the rightful judge of who submits to God?

[inhumility]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

The heart of the matter of this thread as I read it is:
Why, how, and who judges a person is a Muslim or a non-Muslim?

The best judge of a person's faith is either God, if he reveals to a Prophet about the faith of a person, else the person himself claiming that he for instance is a Jew, or a Christian or a Muslim and that has to be accepted as is cutomery the world over, not third person can judge for faith of a person.
Thanks

[cyberpi]

Yes. However, the creator of the universe knows me far better than I do. Does anyone claim to know themselves as well as the creator of the universe? Does any prophet claim to know me better than Allah (swt)?

I should clarify something. I request and welcome everyone to question and judge my faith. While many consider the action of ‘judge’ to be negative as a tool to divide and condemn, I think to be 'judged' is truly a gift of love. As a child I felt no separation between judgement and being condemned, and didn't even consider it judgement when it was praise, but as an adult I see the differences. While we may each make the mistake of judging what we have no knowledge of, or judging what we can’t see or hear, we learn from the mistakes. Far better to openly expose the demons in us that we come to believe than it is to conceal them. Can any teacher truly teach without asking questions? No, by their question and their exam we are judged.

Those who love me are the ones that judge me. With the word of their judgement they open my eyes and empower me with the information so that I can learn, change, or respond. The truth from judgement shows respect for me and my ability to judge, whether I respond with happiness, sadness, anger, humiliation, understanding or ignorance. By judging me I become the judge, enabled to choose whether to learn, respond, renounce as a lie, or remain ignorant. But without the grace of being judged I am condemned to my own ignorance. So I ask Allah (swt), strangers, friends and enemies, please judge what you see and please judge me.

Those who hate me are the ones who condemn me. By the wrath of their condemnation they reduce my power to judge. They judge me but hold it concealed in their minds or place it publicly behind my back where I have no ability to respond to it. They condemn me by censoring my tongue, whispering away from my ears, placing my eyes in darkness, shackling my hands, trapping my steps, or even opposing my life. They keep secret from me or make my perspective a secret, only because they oppose me or what I believe is true. With the wrath of their condemnation they try to remove my judgement from the world. So I ask Allah (swt), strangers, friends and enemies, please do not condemn me unless I condemn others, and am irretrievable from the present evil.

So I should be clearer and ask, "Why, how, and who condemns a person as a Muslim or non-Muslim?", but the definition of judge and condemn that I receive may be different than others. I find that the verses of Al-Baqara which are often quoted alone to increase their meaning are finalized by a single verse that confirms the definition of the word condemn. (2:286) Some Christians may forget that the cross is a symbol of the judgement and condemnation of Jesus (pbuh) by men. The words he spoke are of great comfort: "Judge not, and you shall not be judged: condemn not, and you will not be condemned: forgive, and you will be forgiven." Regarding entry to a synagogue (or any place of worship), John 12:42-50 is also a good read.