A Word Whose Time Has Come To An End

[Dor]

Originally Posted by flowperson

I'm sorry if my post left the impression that I advocate abandoning, ignoring, or discarding the contents of the Bible, including all of the rules, even though it is 3,000 years old.

Perhaps you, Dor, Q, Dondi, et al, just missed the content of what I had to say. What we are discussing is the concept of not calling people heretics or accusing them of heresy just because they choose to interpret scripture in non-traditional ways so that it might serve to be a guide for us into the future. After the work that I have done, I have come to believe that such an approach is becoming more and more necessary with each day that passes.

Actually I generally do not call people heretics for interpreting scripture different. Well thats not true someone that tells me Christ was not God, was not born of a virgin, was not resurrected, was buried in a community grave, and his crucifixion did nothing to save man from sins well bet your ass Im calling him a heretic.(actually thats probably the nicest thing I will call him)
Wait a minute. We have to interpet the Bible different so it can guide us into the future well we seem to be getting worse not better maybe we need to go back to the Bible not change it to fit us.

And, as wil has also pointed out, some of us believe that since we are all rapidly becoming a global community, in at least a secular sense, we'd best be about the business of doing some fresh interpretations of the Bible's content so that more believers of differing faith might partake in the feast that Jesus and the Prophets left for us all.
To not pursue this goal, in my way of thinking and as mentioned above by Earl, is to ignore the greatest teaching left for us in the NT, to love our neighbors as ourselves. To not pursue this goal is inherently an exclusionary action that can only lead to increasing conflict as we have seen in recent years. All I really said was that our current understandings of the Bible's content serves to point the way to new interpretations of its timeless stories in light if the knowledge that we have accumulated in secular societies over the past 3,000 years.

2 Corinthians 11
Paul and the False Apostles

1I hope you will put up with a little of my foolishness; but you are already doing that. 2I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. 3But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

…

12And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.


We are not supposed to put up or agree with false apostles.

[Faithfulservant]

Ive already said my opinion of Spong and his tale of fiction... Its funny how closely it resembles a certain church in the book of revelation that Christ spews out of His mouth.. what can God and the church do for me instead what can I do for God and the church..

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

Namaste Q, nice analogy but the analogy falls apart in one big way. As new information is revealed and old ways are no longer needed, your UCMJ is updated, on a regular basis.

Dor and mee, my brothers and sisters, the bible is my book, and Jesus is my brother. I have no intention of throwing either one away. They are both in my life daily, my foundational sources for thoughts and life.

But that does not mean I will discount the millions of other Christians who don't think like me, and believe in separation. Nor does it mean I will discount the billions of Muslims, Hindus, Bhuddists, Taoists, etc. And not attempt to strive toward harmony, compassion, understanding and Unity.

The internet is not mentioned in the bible...won't stop me from using it. I am not like the Amish who have picked a date and frozen time, but when it comes to forgiveness, I obviously can learn something from them.

No, it hasn't been as far as laws, rules and regulations, and the punishments for violation of such. It still has the same ideals as the original "Rocks and Shoals" manual. (for the good order and discipline of the service).

I'm not referring to discounting people. They are free to choose to believe as they see fit. Doesn't mean I'm going to accept their ways and thinking as being comparable to the definition of Christianity as accepted by the main stream, by the same name. Indeed, I am aware that many consider my belief to by nearly non-Christian save for the fact that it is a trinitarian belief, with Jesus and the Bible, at the center.

You know, the irony of the Amish, is that though they look like they haven't advanced physically in the modern world, their faith and practical application of that faith is centuries ahead of the rest of us. When is the last time a particular Christian sect has literally practiced enmasse what the Bible teaches about loving one's enemies, as they just displayed a few weeks ago for the entire world to witness (up in Pennsylvania), that you can recall?

v/r

Joshua

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Flow!

I want to agree with you in post 15, and I tried, up to here:

Religion, just as the human societies that it serves, should be a collection of growing and dynamic systems that reflect the truths of natural processes.

Now, I feel a need to be cautious with semantics. Depending what one means with the term "religion," this statement I quoted could mean a lot of different things. If I take the term religion to mean a search for G-d, and G-d is eternal and unchanging, then the path religion points up should not change either. Perhaps this is why the term "wisdom of the ages?"

[wil]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

You know, the irony of the Amish, is that though they look like they haven't advanced physically in the modern world, their faith and practical application of that faith is centuries ahead of the rest of us. When is the last time a particular Christian sect has literally practiced enmasse what the Bible teaches about loving one's enemies, as they just displayed a few weeks ago for the entire world to witness (up in Pennsylvania), that you can recall?

hmmm, thought that was my point.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

hmmm, thought that was my point.

Perhaps it was. But if you read your post again, you might find that others could take it a different way, one in which you are not in admiration of the Amish, but rather just shy of patronizing their ways.

v/r

Joshua

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Likewise there is another book, that some follow, that is of stories, lessons learned, traditions, wonderous glory, a guide to gentleness, fair treatment, and a book of hope, as well as laws, rules and regulations. With few exceptions (migitating or extenuating circumstances), there is not much in the way of variation or interpretation on these laws, rules and regulation. And it sets the stage for judging personnel and their actions. There is a reason for all of this. And that reason is in order for those who call themselves "servants" to act in such a manner that is befitting and brings credit, honor and glory to those being served...

That book is called the Armed Forces Uniform Code of Military Justice.

Q

This seems excellent. Can copies be printed off urgently and sent to all serving soldiers?

s.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

This seems excellent. Can copies be printed off urgently and sent to all serving soldiers?

s.

The US military personnel already have access to the UCMJ. However, I understand your "message", and see no need to respond in kind.

v/r

Joshua

[earl]

Now about that love thy neighbor business-only gripe I've got re Jesus' message is he didn't leave behind a bunch of teachings re tools to use to make that more likely vs. Gautama the Buddha for instance whose whole fous in teaching was to provide tools for such. Heck, we all know it's easier said than done re to "love" as our personal fears and hatreds tend to disunify us from ourselves and others. In fact, I dare say that one of the motivations behind the now fairly long-standing interfaith dialogue movement between Christian clerics/laity and other religions such as Buddhism and Hinduism is both the recognition of delight in our common spiritual cores (while recognizing and accepting differences) and the delight taken in learning from each other to enrich our own practices. These Christian dialoguers understand that for instance learning how Buddhist meditative practices can assist them in seeing through and releasing mental habits which reinforce those aforementioned afflictive states (while continuing to allow Jesus to be your shepherd) only enables a greater ability to love thy neighbor and serve God-doesn't make them less "Christian." In fact, if such practices drawn from other traditions were introduced as "generic" tools not "name-brand", (in fact they were often just "discoveries" of ways in which "reality" functions at times that later came to be "copyrighted" in association with religions springing up around them but I digress ), those who freak re labels might be less alarmed and see their value to their personal Way. At the end of any day, what we should ask of what "tool" we use and how we use it is simply, "did it enable me to love God and my neighbor better?"

As to changing perspectives of theological teachings in the face of science or other more secular discoveries, there too we tend to become overly rigid and entrenched with our beliefs believing that there is no room for change without sacrificing what it means to us to be "Christian." But to show another model re that you only need to look to the Dalai Lama who for a number of years has hosted dialoging conferences not only with other religious groups but also with scientists and has even been quoted as saying that if science "proved" that something Buddhism believed was not actually true then Buddhism would need to alter that belief. In other words, he recognizes that the essence of his religion is not to be found in the specific details of beliefs but at the very core. To him science and the possible challenge it may present to a specific belief is not heresy but rather possible impetus for a religion to change and grow. He doesn't sweat whether in doing so it makes him "non-Buddhist."

So if folks want to be Christian while enriching themselves with the gifts of humanity outside their immediate circle, it ain't "heretical" in my opinion unless it detracts from Jesus' basic message.

Lunamoth, if I remember right in a thread once you stated it was all about love and the rest was commentary. That's so profoundly true.

have a good one, earl

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by earl

Now about that love thy neighbor business-only gripe I've got re Jesus' message is he didn't leave behind a bunch of teachings re tools to use to make that more likely vs. Gautama the Buddha for instance whose whole fous in teaching was to provide tools for such....

Mayhap He knew we already had the tools inside us, and He was telling us it is time to open the tool box and take them out...

[flowperson]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Mayhap He knew we already had the tools inside us, and He was telling us it is time to open the tool box and take them out...

Q... excellent point. I believe that this is what is happening today before our eyes, but many are trying to cover-up the truths of the process by hurling bible verses at those who try to point that out. Calling such people "heretics" or "blasphemers" solves nothing in the moment except for enhancing the self-gratification of the name callers. I don't view my role in life as one who causes hostility or fear...so I guess I'll butt out for now.

The powers of the thought processes of human beings are only beginning to be understood...and those who fear change are threatened the most by that...so they always tend to try to revert discussions to the far away past.

flow....

[flowperson]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Kindest Regards, Flow!

I want to agree with you in post 15, and I tried, up to here:


Now, I feel a need to be cautious with semantics. Depending what one means with the term "religion," this statement I quoted could mean a lot of different things. If I take the term religion to mean a search for G-d, and G-d is eternal and unchanging, then the path religion points up should not change either. Perhaps this is why the term "wisdom of the ages?"

Juan:

I know that the term "relative" sets off alarm bells for some...but like it or not, science has demonstrated that we exist in a relativistic environment. Everything in the web of life which G-d created is connected. While religion must grow and dynamically interact with the human species over time to be useful and relevant to life, the growth and dynamism of religion is very slow over time and acts as a governing brake on the tendency for human progess to outstrip its time tested moral underpinnings.

We are only now beginning to understand the severe damage that we have collectively done to G-d's Creation over the centuries, and especially in the last 150 years or so. This is just a fancy explanation to point out why conservatives and liberals are such vocal combatants these days.

IMHO, the current turmoil caused by the interfacing of novel scientific understandings and technologies based upon these findings is forcing us all to re-evaluate where we've been as a species... and more importantly the choices facing us as to where we are going as a species. There's no right or wrong in all of this...only a lot of feeling around in the darkness for the "right" door handles so that the greatest good may be done for the largest numbers of us in the future. Thanks for your thoughts.

flow....

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by flowperson

Q... excellent point. I believe that this is what is happening today before our eyes, but many are trying to cover-up the truths of the process by hurling bible verses at those who try to point that out. Calling such people "heretics" or "blasphemers" solves nothing in the moment except for enhancing the self-gratification of the name callers. I don't view my role in life as one who causes hostility or fear...so I guess I'll butt out for now.

The powers of the thought processes of human beings are only beginning to be understood...and those who fear change are threatened the most by that...so they always tend to try to revert discussions to the far away past.

flow....

Or maybe, bible verses are what is used to unlock the truth, and those that wish to ignore the truth are the ones being blocked.

Depends on one's perspective.

[Dor]

Originally Posted by flowperson

The powers of the thought processes of human beings are only beginning to be understood...and those who fear change are threatened the most by that...so they always tend to try to revert discussions to the far away past.

flow....

Actually I do not fear anything in this world. I know exactly where I am going to be and who I am going to be with. If that happens tonight or in 45 yrs makes no difference to me. If it is through death or the rapture makes no difference to me.

The only ones I see that are afraid are the ones that want to change God, the bible and believe they are bigger than it all.
I do not fear change I cringe with the thought of how many lost people die daily. 1.7 deaths per second.

If you think the world is getting better then I need some of your rose colored glasses.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Dor

I do not fear change I cringe with the thought of how many lost people die daily. 1.7 deaths per second.

If you think the world is getting better then I need some of your rose colored glasses.

I die daily...I like the rose colored glasses, but haven't had to put them on. I look at the amount of charitable work being done around the world. I look at the kids I see that have such heady questions and ideals and are ready to do the work required to position themselves to be movers and shakers of our future. I look at the incredible dialogue between religions and countries that is achieved without violence. I look at how education and awareness reduces negative behaviour.

The growth and change that is occurring is phenomenal...can't even find my rose colored glasses.