A Truly Fundamental Christianity

[Thomas]

Hi Wil –

Cannot Jesus baptize us without an intermediary?
Yes He can – but he chose otherwise – which is the whole point ...

As we discussed elsewhere the concept of eating substance (bread) and drinking spirit (wine) was nothing new at the time or now amongst his brethren (Jews)...We've continued the same tradition.

Indeed ... and as has also been discussed elsewhere, Jesus transcended both the symbolic and sacramental aspect of a common practice, both of the Jews and of the world at large ... scholars of all traditions note that this sacramental aspect is unique to Christianity.

Thomas

[Thomas]

Beautiful, InLove ...

+++

I am one of those who wonders about the real Church.

This is the crux.

There is an old Catholic joke – there's two types of Catholic, those who know it, and those who don't know it yet. But there's much to be said ...

... If we say the 'real Church' is the body of those faithful ... faithful in their own way to whatever, whoever, and however they understand what we (as Catholics) understand 'God' to be, then the 'real Church' exists only in a spiritual sense, largely anonymous, and unknown even to Itself, and in the material world it is an abstract – it remains secret and hidden ... but if we know this, and do not present its face to the world as a community then the world is robbed of its gift, its grace and its glory, the world is robbed of the Presence of Itself as something essentially 'good' as something essentially Divine – and we inevitably, inexorably, withdraw into some Platonic dualism of a 'real (spiritual and invisible) Church' and an 'unreal (physical and visible) Church'.

... I cannot bear that. I cannot bear the thought of a physical world, created by God like every other world, yet denied the Divine Presence within itself present to itself as the source of its reality, its goodness, and its beauty.

... it renders every art, every craft, every human achievement in the world ... hopeless.

No. I will not have it. The world is essentially and fundamentally good. Just beguiled and misguided.

It can be saved.

... Yet if I cannot bring myself to embrace my neighbour in the flesh, as I have been commanded, to embrace the world as the world is, to offer a healing hand ... what right have I to ask, what right have I to hope, that He will embrace me in the Spirit?

That I might be made anew?

The Church is my hope, and yet I nor She is under any illusion that in Her members we are willful, errant and prone to sin, my presence is an acknowledgement not of my faith in Her but Her faith in me – Her hope, Her faith and Her one wish 'that all men might be saved'.

She is the measure of myself. The Mirror of Being.

She is all that is best in my dialogue with God...

... And she suffers all my worst ...

Thomas

[InLove]

Thank you, Thomas, for that.

I understand.

If it sometimes takes the physical to help manifest the Spiritual, is that not what our Lord has done?

I am endlessly blessed wherever I find His Love.

InPeace,
InLove

[InLove]

And Saltmeister--I totally understand the orange thing.

InPeace,
InLove

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Beautiful, InLove ...

+++

I am one of those who wonders about the real Church.

This is the crux.

There is an old Catholic joke – there's two types of Catholic, those who know it, and those who don't know it yet. But there's much to be said ...

... If we say the 'real Church' is the body of those faithful ... faithful in their own way to whatever, whoever, and however they understand what we (as Catholics) understand 'God' to be, then the 'real Church' exists only in a spiritual sense, largely anonymous, and unknown even to Itself, and in the material world it is an abstract – it remains secret and hidden ... but if we know this, and do not present its face to the world as a community then the world is robbed of its gift, its grace and its glory, the world is robbed of the Presence of Itself as something essentially 'good' as something essentially Divine – and we inevitably, inexorably, withdraw into some Platonic dualism of a 'real (spiritual and invisible) Church' and an 'unreal (physical and visible) Church'.

... I cannot bear that. I cannot bear the thought of a physical world, created by God like every other world, yet denied the Divine Presence within itself present to itself as the source of its reality, its goodness, and its beauty.

... it renders every art, every craft, every human achievement in the world ... hopeless.

No. I will not have it. The world is essentially and fundamentally good. Just beguiled and misguided.

It can be saved.

... Yet if I cannot bring myself to embrace my neighbour in the flesh, as I have been commanded, to embrace the world as the world is, to offer a healing hand ... what right have I to ask, what right have I to hope, that He will embrace me in the Spirit?

That I might be made anew?

The Church is my hope, and yet I nor She is under any illusion that in Her members we are willful, errant and prone to sin, my presence is an acknowledgement not of my faith in Her but Her faith in me – Her hope, Her faith and Her one wish 'that all men might be saved'.

She is the measure of myself. The Mirror of Being.

She is all that is best in my dialogue with God...

... And she suffers all my worst ...

Thomas

Isn't that what water baptism is all about? Isn't it about the open physical recognition of "the body of the faithful?"

[flowperson]

Hmmm...I believe it to be a recognition of commonality in that all human beings are 90% water, although, of course that couldn't have been known when the sacrament was established, could it ? Maybe that was a secret knowledge recognized somewhere along the timeline of the Church.

flow....

[lovenvrfails]

I need some advise Im an ordained minister who has considered himself to be an evangelical Christian most of my ministry but Im now coming to a place in my faith that questions the authoritarian controlling and manipulating methodology which I have found in the camps I run do you have any advice to a person who believes in the literal physical resurrection of Christ but does not believe He consigns people to hell for misunderstanding Him. Im even questioning the plenary inspiration of the scriptures but have no way to gage what I should do

[Thomas]

Hi Seattlegal – season's greetings!

Isn't that what water baptism is all about? Isn't it about the open physical recognition of "the body of the faithful?"

Indeed, and the symbolic references are manifold – and only come to full meaning when viewed against their particular background.

It occurs to me, following your lead, that some might argue that 'baptism' – or the rite of washing – is a universal symbol of purification, which it is, however to understand Christian baptism one should look at all the Christian formative data, which is the foundation of its hermeneutic.

So in that sense, baptism, as an initiatic rite, is a symbol of deliverance, with reference to the Exodus and specifically passage through the Red Sea, which again infers the upper and lower waters of the Creation ... then we have Jesus walking on the water, and what that signifies, the Flood, the Ark, ... again and again the references are not only to the spiritual but also the communal ...

Thomas

[wil]

Originally Posted by lovenvrfails

I need some advise Im an ordained minister who has considered himself to be an evangelical Christian most of my ministry but Im now coming to a place in my faith that questions the authoritarian controlling and manipulating methodology which I have found in the camps I run do you have any advice to a person who believes in the literal physical resurrection of Christ but does not believe He consigns people to hell for misunderstanding Him. Im even questioning the plenary inspiration of the scriptures but have no way to gage what I should do

Namaste Lovenvrfails and welcome to CR

One thing I've learned when others ask "What would you do if you were in my shoes?" The correct answer for me is "I would do what you would do if I were in your shoes"

I hear you in the joys and pangs and pain of exploration. As we are stretched, as our understanding grows sometimes we grow out of where we are. But sometimes we want to stay to take part in the change with others as well. And sometimes we leave and come back...all I know is, it is all good.

The place I would look is within your heart, go inside, listen to that still small voice and see where it leads. Speak with the powers that be...their answers, no matter what they are should assist you in your decisions.

Peace and blessings in your travels.