a small problem with the trinity

[_Z_]

small problem with the trinity
please be patient i am trying to get my head around abrahamic religions.

i don’t understand the trinity, so i ask this with all respect; if it is problematic having god the son that is god the father who ‘gave’ mary the mother the son? in human terms he would have made his own mother pregnant with himself?

so how does it work; presuming this is not the case?

[Alex P]

A-HA! My brother do you pick your timings for topics at just the right moment! Bless you brother! We got two hot leads right about now... Perhaps you can ask two sides for an opinion?

You have this FOR the trinity: (a couple disagreements, naturally...): Trinity

This NOT FOR the trinity: (A couple disagreements, naturally...): The Trinity, from the JW view.

Apart from that my most excellent friend, your guess is as good as mine.

[_Z_]

hi alex p
i always had good timing.

i will have a look thanks for the links but do they cover it? if not... [edit; they dont seam to tackle the question from this practicle angle]

so does what i am saying make sense or am i missing the whole point of what the trinity is - i just don’t know much about it?

[Alex P]

Sorry I think perhaps we should find you a better source then as you wish to learn seriously the trinity I shall find what I can on the trinity as, the two before mentioned threads... They could easily leave you confused and I really don't wish to do that, it isn't fair... Here brother. Just read that first before reading the other threads I pasted, so you have an idea on the trinity, then if you wish so, I'd suggest seeing the two threads... And see the varied opinions on this teaching.

What is the Trinity

[_Z_]

ok i am just reading that last thread - thanks. it is so far pretty much as i thought, in fact i have taken the idea to a universal level in many a thread [even though i only had a vague idea of it lols].

the problem for me is when you add mary who is not of the trinity, then the above confusion sets in! personally i would add mary to the equation on a spiritual level ~ my trinity would be...

god - the one and the whole.
spirit - of god in divine essence.
world - the physical and all that dwells within.

i am unsure if that helps the problem, except we may say that god can give mary child who then give birth to jesus, so it is like 1, 2, 3, of the above. the confusion comes when we consider 3 as the 1 in performing ‘the task’ with 2.

[Alex P]

Just trying to help..

Great talking with you, but I am going to fade out, as here comes the part where I have no opinion.

[Francis king]

I think that the Trinity is a metaphor, a way for man to understand God better. It is not an actual reality.

The idea is... God, as one, is hard to describe and hard to understand. God often does not seem to be one.

Let's look at it another way.

God, is one, but has different faces, or aspects...

there is "God the father", the protector, the authoritarian, he who must be obeyed and respected and feared...

But... that is not all God is... God is also "God the son", the child of his father, the young man, imperfect but innocent, the one you love like a son...

But, that is not all God is either... God is also "the spirit", something difficult to grasp, something like the wind, or the breath, or water, something which is real and powerful but which is hard to grasp in your hand...

All those things together, are God...

Man will interact with God on one of these levels. A man will view God as a punisher, a ruler maker, a being who tells you what to do for your own good, or man will view God as they would a son, somebody they have a loving relationship with, or they will view God as a spirit, something intangible yet real.

This metaphor is used by some christians for a reason which most christians will not accept, yet I will say it anyway.

The only reason there is a Trinity concept within christianity is because in pagan times there was a trinity. A trinity of past, present and future, a trinity of a maiden, mother, and crone, all ways of philosophically explaining time, and existence, and when christianity invaded ancient Britain and Western europe they found the concept of the trinity too difficult to destroy and incorporated a similar tale into the christian system so the people would not have too much difficulty accepting the new ways, which, on the surface at least, resembled the older ways...

As for Mary giving birth to God...

Did she? Or did she instead give birth to a man who we have made into a God?

[BlaznFattyz]

mary gave the Word of God his humanity, his human body, so he could be born a man, under the law, to lay down his life and be crucified and die for us as the only sacrifice that could please God, and resurrect so we might find life in him, be forgiven of sins and find salvation thru the Son of God. the holy spirit of God gave Christ his deity, as the fullness of God dwelt fully in him which gave him the authority to forgive sins and offer salvation. So although Christ was born a man for a period of time, in Spirit he always exists with God and as God.

[Thomas]

Excellent summary, BlaznFattyz, if I may say.

Thomas

[_Z_]

francis hi
nice explanation.
you are right about pagan Trinities, many things were carried over into christianity e.g. the arch druid became the arch bishop of cantebury [? i think], then yes the triple goddess and the festivals.

i suppose i try to understand god as the spirit then.

blaznfattyz, hi
i see so jesus between death and rising is the spirit of god and i suppose he is such before and after his life.
are we all god as spirit before and after death?
-----------------------------
none of this answers the problem of course. jesus still impregnates his own mother with himself in the literal context.

for now i will stick to the idea that jesus was a man like the rest of us but rose to god, that we may all follow and do the same. of course the problem then is that if we all do so then we stop observing earthly concerns ~ like having children, living a materialistic lifestyle etc.

thanks for replies, the idea as ever is only to bring one nearer to truth.

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by _Z_

blaznfattyz, hi
i see so jesus between death and rising is the spirit of god and i suppose he is such before and after his life.
are we all god as spirit before and after death?
-----------------------------
none of this answers the problem of course. jesus still impregnates his own mother with himself in the literal context.

for now i will stick to the idea that jesus was a man like the rest of us but rose to god, that we may all follow and do the same. of course the problem then is that if we all do so then we stop observing earthly concerns ~ like having children, living a materialistic lifestyle etc.

thanks for replies, the idea as ever is only to bring one nearer to truth.

Jesus at birth was already known as the Son of God, and this is why angels, and men worshiped him at birth. He was God before coming as a man, He was God when he died, and He was God when he resurrected and was glorifed back to the Father. No we are not all god as spirit before and after death, we are his creation, and we have the ability to have the holy spirit of God dwell within us if we have a relationship with Christ, and to be glorified one day as Christ paved the way for us and is the way.
you are incorrect in saying jesus impregnated himself, but i think you wanted to say that for whatever reason. It is correct to say that the Father sent the Word of God, the part of God which all things were created for and by him, to be among us. and the way he did that was thru the virgin Mary to supply the body, and thru the Holy Spirit to supply the Spirit of God which is the deity of Christ which always existed before all things as God.

[_Z_]

blaznfattyz

No we are not all god as spirit before and after death

we have the ability to have the holy spirit of God dwell within us

if we have a relationship with Christ

the first sentence contradicts the second, the third says that if we do not have a relationship with christ then the spirit cannot dwell in us? i would think that the spirit either does or does not dwell in us [and animals and mother earth etc], god would be most cruel otherwise. i think god is very wise indeed and would not wish for, nor create such an inane state of affairs, he would surely create a fair and equal world/universe.

as all the universe is his creation why is it that only humans have his spirit and then only if they believe in jesus as the literal son of god?
if perfect then perfection only may ensue.

you are incorrect in saying jesus impregnated himself,

but i think you wanted to say that for whatever reason.

i didn’t actually, i said that jesus impregnated ‘mary’ with himself, may i please state that i don’t think that is the case, i think it is a problem with the idea of the trinity, and i didn’t say it to inflame. i get these crazy ideas so i have to say them to work it all out, sorry for looking at things in a practical manner.

thanks for reply.

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by _Z_

the first sentence contradicts the second, the third says that if we do not have a relationship with christ then the spirit cannot dwell in us? i would think that the spirit either does or does not dwell in us [and animals and mother earth etc], god would be most cruel otherwise. i think god is very wise indeed and would not wish for, nor create such an inane state of affairs, he would surely create a fair and equal world/universe.

as all the universe is his creation why is it that only humans have his spirit and then only if they believe in jesus as the literal son of god?
if perfect then perfection only may ensue.




i didn’t actually, i said that jesus impregnated ‘mary’ with himself, may i please state that i don’t think that is the case, i think it is a problem with the idea of the trinity, and i didn’t say it to inflame. i get these crazy ideas so i have to say them to work it all out, sorry for looking at things in a practical manner.

thanks for reply.

no the first sentence doesnt contradict the second. we have souls, or some might say spirit, but not everyone has the holy spirit of God within them, or all would say that Christ is Lord, but that is not the case, which is what the Spirit guides and teaches one to understand. Those not born again of the Spirit do not have the Spirit. The Spirit of God does not dwell within those that are evil and rebuke God, and we are not talking animals, we are talking man and his salvation. of course the spirit goes where he goes, like the wind, but in touching someone and them receiving the Spirit, they also at that moment have a relationship with Christ, and then have a relationship with the Father. You cannot have one without the other. God is not cruel in anyway you are thinking, animals are a different creation than man, and their ongoing life after death or recreation is something completely different from man as they do not choose evil or choose God, they are animals. man has a soul because God breathed life into man, and was made in his image, and our choices to obey God or not obey God makes all the difference, and is why Christ came.

[Dream]

Looking back through the threads....there are actually lots of threads on Trinity. 3 current active threads including this one. *the crowd goes "oooooh"* Yes, its a trinity of threads.

[_Z_]

ha, a trinity of threads


blaz

god created us so our spirit is the spirit of god. but if you want to believe in that prejudice out of date literalist stuff, that is entirely up to you . personally i don’t think people are evil if they belong to another religion or even if they are atheists.

i believe in evolution so we are animals just more intelligent ones. i cannot understand the logic where god creates something evil? unless you think something else created the universe, or had a hand in its creation?

still no answer to the original problem unless we don’t take it all to literally eh! the problem is there to show that ~ it is a literal interpretation, thats all.