a small problem with the trinity

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by _Z_

ha, a trinity of threads


blaz

god created us so our spirit is the spirit of god. but if you want to believe in that prejudice out of date literalist stuff, that is entirely up to you . personally i don’t think people are evil if they belong to another religion or even if they are atheists.

i believe in evolution so we are animals just more intelligent ones. i cannot understand the logic where god creates something evil? unless you think something else created the universe, or had a hand in its creation?

still no answer to the original problem unless we don’t take it all to literally eh! the problem is there to show that ~ it is a literal interpretation, thats all.

I believe i gave you several answers from a christian point of view, but if you want to ignore it rather than understand it, thats a different story than having your question answered. if we had the spirit of God, as Christ has the spirit of God, then we would be God and not disobey him, or sin, or ever do evil. This is the difference between Jesus Christ, he was fully God, having the fullness of the Spirit of God, he did not sin, but the will of God he carried out, because being God he could do nothing other than what God would do. it seems really naive of you to say people are not evil or to not "understand the logic where god creates something evil." people choose to do evil things, people choose to sin, God creates all things and all His things are good, but man chooses to fashion them after his heart's desire and do evil with them, and that is where it goes bad. is that really so hard to understand?

[_Z_]

if we had the spirit of God, as Christ has the spirit of God, then we would be God and not disobey him, or sin, or ever do evil. This is the difference between Jesus Christ, he was fully God, having the fullness of the Spirit of God, he did not sin, but the will of God he carried out, because being God he could do nothing other than what God would do.

didn’t he say something like; though shalt not wash thy hands before eating, hence christians used to be dirty, the OT has many questionable instances too [i could quote but it is not on topic].

it seems really naive of you to say people are not evil [1] or to not "understand the logic where god creates something evil." ... God creates all things and all His things are good[2]

1. did i say people are not evil ~ they are not they just do evil acts that doesn’t make the soul evil it makes it lost, although i wouldn’t entirely blame such individuals as much of it is created by society ~ nobody questions the righteous!

2. lions are ‘good’, how about t-rex? much of nature is not what i would call good. i agree though that we make evil in human society, war suffering etc.
does any of this answer the problem [i hope i don’t have to keep saying that].

[Gatekeeper]

I don't understand the trinity per se, but I understand that Jesus had a divine nature, which I believe stemmed from the Spirit of God. I don't believe that Jesus was God, tho - only a vessel for the Holy Spirit, or 'Word'. I'll give my view, but most will more than likely disagree. I wrote my views down a while back, so I'll just rehash some old ideas I've had in the past. How does all this fit into the Trinity? Only by implication that I disagree that Jesus was God Himself, and my personal view of Christ Jesus, the Word, and the wisdom of God....

“God is love” (1 John 4:7-17) Love is the very essence or “Spirit” of God, and Christ was the manifestation of that essence. Jesus was God’s only begotten son; the fullness of God dwelt within Him bodily. (Colossians 2:9) This does not suggest that Christ was God himself, but rather a vessel of God‘s spirit. Born of the flesh and of the Spirit, Christ possessed both a divine nature and a human nature. He experienced the human struggle fully, yet through the indwelling of God’s Spirit, he was able to conquer the carnal attributes of his flesh .

John 1:1-14

The scripture quoted above speaks of the Word of God and its manifestation in Christ, the only ‘begotten’ of the father. When reading these passages, it is helpful to keep in mind that when Christ taught, he did not teach of himself, (The man) but of the father that dwelt in him. (The Spirit)

Christ himself speaks of the Word as being something he possessed rather than something he was; this suggests to me that Jesus was not the literal Word, but rather a vessel for the Word.

(John 5:24 24.)
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

(John 8:31-32)
31. Jesus therefore said to those Jews that had believed him, If ye abide in my word, then are ye truly my disciples;
32. and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Most Christians view Christ himself as being the Word spoken of in John; some even suggest that it is biblical scripture. Then there are others whom view the wisdom Solomon spoke of in Proverbs to be the Word of God. I am not in disagreement with this latter sentiment, as the following passages parallel John 1:1-4.

Proverbs 8:22-26

Wisdom is what guided Solomon, it was his passion and source for instruction.

(Proverbs 19:16)
16. He who keeps the commandment keeps his life; he who despises the word will die.

(Proverbs 16:20)
20. He who gives heed to the word will prosper, and happy is he who trusts in the Lord.

(Proverbs 13:13)
13. He who despises the word brings destruction on himself, but he who respects the commandment will be rewarded.

Paul speaks also of God’s wisdom in 1 Corinthians 2:1-16. If you put all these passages in perspective, a clearer understanding of the Word begins to form. [imo]

1 Corinthians 2:1-16

Above Paul speaks of God’s hidden wisdom, which is the same wisdom Solomon tells us was established before the beginning of the world. Paul also speaks of the spirit of God, which we have received through Christ. We are to be spiritually minded, so let us consider the spirit of love “Agape“, which is the essence of the father. Solomon tells us in Proverbs 1:23 that wisdom is actually “Spirit“. “Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.“

Could the wisdom that Solomon spoke of be the wisdom which comes from walking in the ways of love? Could it be that love is also the Word and “spirit” through which all things were created? God is love; to know God, we must understand and walk in His ways.

Love can be compared to a compass; when followed it guides us, convicts us, it directs and redirects our steps. It simply enables us to walk the strait and narrow path. If we walked in love at all times, keeping our minds continually on it, inclining our hearts to its understanding, our feet would never stumble. Consider the following written by Solomon:

Proverbs 8:32-36

Love is the strait gate, and the narrow path that so many of us fail to enter and follow. (Matthew 7:13-20) It is the very same gate referred to in the scripture above. Understanding love, which is the wisdom and knowledge of God, unlocks that gate. Faith in love releases God‘s power, and hope that we can free from darkness through it, helps enable the spiritual man to keep its ways.

Christ walked in this spirit fully; it enabled him to live a perfect and sinless life. He is our example. Christ crucified the human and sinful nature of his own flesh through it, and we are to follow in his footsteps. All are able to receive this spirit, all are able to grow in it, and all are able to accomplish what God wants for us through its power. Even though we all sin and fall short of God’s glory, we have the opportunity to embrace His love, and become His adopted children. God’s spirit of love is given to us freely. Christ paid the price so we could receive what He possessed. If we fail to heed its guidance, we will forever remain in darkness, blind to the full measure of harm it causes both to self, and to those around us. Love, or the spirit and wisdom of God, enables us to walk in a manner conducive to peace, and in accordance to His will. It convicts us when we do wrong, and it moves us strait ward when we stumble. If we keep love in our hearts and follow in its ways, we will continue always in the grace of God, and of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Love is the wisdom written about in Proverbs; it is the wisdom of God, the hidden wisdom and spirit that dwelt within Christ our Lord. God’s wisdom and Word, is God’s Love and Spirit, which was fully manifest in Jesus. Christ was conceived of this spirit; he submitted to it fully. He embraced His Fathers will, living a perfect life. Because of His obedience to the Father, and through the spirit he possessed, Christ made a way for us to be reconciled to God also.

James

[Dream]

Gatekeeper, that post was a work of art. Do not work so hard on your posts, because its not fair to everyone else. Also, people will start asking you for help writing their resumes.

[Gatekeeper]

Originally Posted by Dream

Gatekeeper, that post was a work of art. Do not work so hard on your posts, because its not fair to everyone else. Also, people will start asking you for help writing their resumes.

I wrote it all back in the summer.... Copy & paste, baby! I thought it might help to explain my view on trinitarian thought. Of course, I could have just said that I disagree with the trinity, but how insightful is that? Lots of holes in that trinity [imo] namely that very few, if any [truly] understand it. [Most admit, and submit to this fact] Ahhhh, but they still try to get others to adopt it, and some even suggest that one must believe in it to be saved. Then, they will tell you that you are not a true Christian if you don't, lol.

tsk, tsk...

Love

James - a.k.a "Happy Heretic"

[Thomas]

Hi Z —

If one assumes the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity is simply a prolongation of pagan triunes within a Christian context, one will miss the point of what the doctrine is aiming at.

It is an axiom of the Trinity that one cannot state precisely what it is like, because it transcends all cosmological determination. One can point to the Trinity by analogy, but only as long as one is aware that this is an analogy, it is not exactly what it is.

The Fathers tried all manner of analogy — candle, flame and light; flame, light and heat; (hot)iron, heat and light, and so forth, but the better analogies were drawn from a correspondence in human nature — soul, intellect and will, and notably the lover, the loved, and their love — all far transcending the cosmological triunes of antiquity that usually figured the procession of the seasons, and the rites of fertiltiy, etc. Again, always remembering that the metaphor is analogous, and not a precise definition ... as soon as one says, the Trinity is, one is in error. The best we can say, is the Trinity is like ...

Note also that Father, Son and Holy Spirit avoid the obvious pitfall of gender determination at a metagender level, but inescapably use the closest and most informal terms to express a relationship — Father / Son — and a relationship bound in mutuality Father / Son / Spirit — that is the pattern for all subsequent relationship, and the pattern of right-relation, in the manifesting Kosmos. But again, one should remember that the Second and Third Person of the Trinity 'processes' from the first not by any organic manner, so in this sense even 'sonship' is only analogous ... but a fitting and acceptable reality because there is none better, physically nor spiritually.

No teaching can transcend the physical fact of the Person who is Jesus Christ.

If one assumes the teaching to be purely a metaphor, then unless there is a pre-existing foundation for the transferant reference of object of the metaphor itself, it is a fallacy. It is, again for the sake of precision, as best as we are able, that the Fathers sought to define the Mystery in such a way as to eradicate the possibility of error, as much as is possible. The absundancew of erroneous assumptions with regard to the Trinity today are due to the ignorance both of Scripture and of Christianity's philosophical tradition.

The Christian doctrine asserts certain a priori fundamentals — that God is utterly transcendant, that man is contingent, that if indeed there is the possibility of 'union' between the two, and Scripture states explicitly that there is ... then how is such a union possible between two natures that are as unalike as it is possible to be?

If Divine Union is a reality, and not a meaningless metaphor then the Principle of Union must exist in the Deity in principio before it can exist in nature ... if it's not in the Deity, then it's nothing more than a fantasia — one cannot unite with a nature that does not allow of the principle of unity. Therefore, if Union is indeed possible, the Principle of Unity must exist within the Godhead, before any subsequent determination, and it is this that separates the Trinity from all pagan cosmological triunes that preceded it.

Such being the case, the Way of the Union is determined by God, and the conditions established at the foundation of the world, conditions ameiorated only by Grace, which is a Gift of the Holy Spirit, mediated by the Son.

+++

The meaning of Jesus Christ, as a human being, and as a person, can only be properly understood in the light of Trinity in which He is begotten and of which He is the physical Incarnation.

The meaing of man, as a human being, as a nature, and as a person, can only be properly understood in light of the Trinity, in which resides the Logos of all, and the logoi of all individuation.

If one assumes that the incarnation is not a reality, but is simply a metaphor to address something utterly 'other', then the issue is self-defeating, Scripture says God made heavens and the earth, and that both are metaphysically 'good'. A metaphorical interpretation robs the material of its goodness, and assumes the physical has no intrinsic value — from here it's a short step to those pagan and/or gnostic doctrines that insist the material world is essentially evil, and exists contra to the will of God ... a place of necessary containment that needs to be adandoned at the first available opportunity ... not what Scripture says at all.

If one is talking of Trinity, and hasn't read the Fathers, and especially Augustine and Aquinas ... then really the 'empty vessel' analogy applies.

+++

Lastly, the first errors to occur are the last to go away, and Docetism, Cerinthusianism, Appolinarianism, etc., abound, and none moreso than in these days with rely on sentiment rather that objectivity to state what must be true 'because that's what I want to believe'.

The same worn out old dualities are asserted in the face of every teaching to resolve it. Only in Trinity is duality transcended, without reducing everything to a pantheistic monism that mocks both God and man.

Thomas

[_Z_]

gatekeeper, hi

I don’t believe that Jesus was God, tho - only a vessel for the Holy Spirit, or ‘Word’

well yes i agree, as i see it he was an example of how to become son of man i.e. like as if one is son of god on earth.

philosophically i would say that there we should not all be like that, but that is quite another story/thread.
i think we can all be oracles/diviners to god if we open our hearts and ears ~ this is because the divine centre is at the centre of all things i.e. is our inner most and universal nature.

this for me is part of the meaning of the coming apocolypse.

thomas hi

Note also that Father, Son and Holy Spirit avoid the obvious pitfall of gender determination at a metagender level, but inescapably use the closest and most informal terms to express a relationship — Father / Son — and a relationship bound in mutuality Father / Son / Spirit — that is the pattern for all subsequent relationship, and the pattern of right-relation, in the manifesting Kosmos. But again, one should remember that the Second and Third Person of the Trinity ‘processes’ from the first not by any organic manner, so in this sense even ‘sonship’ is only analogous ... but a fitting and acceptable reality because there is none better, physically nor spiritually.

good explanation! i can understand the trinity as a metaphor in any description one cares to give, the problem is when you involve something that is not part of that trinity i.e. mary.
now if we were to say that mary was the daughter of god [why not?] and that the holy spirit and the trinity involves a yin-yang like quality of opposites that transcends gender as we see it, then i can see a trinity!

the problem is that we are casting duel notions where one is divine and the other is some kind of partly divine? if jesus like mary was human then there is no problem. in fact i think that gives you a ‘real’ christianity much like biddhism is more real after they found out that buddha was not a god.

[Gatekeeper]

well yes i agree, as i see it he was an example of how to become son of man i.e. like as if one is son of god on earth.

philosophically i would say that there we should not all be like that, but that is quite another story/thread.
i think we can all be oracles/diviners to god if we open our hearts and ears ~ this is because the divine centre is at the centre of all things i.e. is our inner most and universal nature.

this for me is part of the meaning of the coming apocolypse.

Rom 8:14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Rom 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, "Abba! Father!"

Rom 8:16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God

I agree with you, Z...

I think the coming apocolypse will be one of the changing of hearts, and not so much a [literal] blood bath like most predict. I do believe that many will die to thier old selves, [natures] and will be made new in the Spirit, which is I view to be universal "centre", and heart of God himself.

Love

James

[_Z_]

gatekeeper
nice quotes!

I think the coming apocolypse will be one of the changing of hearts, and not so much a [literal] blood bath like most predict. I do believe that many will die to thier old selves, [natures] and will be made new in the Spirit, which is I view to be universal "centre", and heart of God himself.

absolutely. man will have to learn that gods consciousness pervades all things and so we must revere the earth and all life upon it.

a rule; people will change. i think people have gotten nearer to god over the last 2000 years [and before] and they will continue to do so. i don’t know what it will be but intuitively i feel there will be a catalyst for quick and massive change in the way we live and think ~ a soul change.

[Gatekeeper]

Originally Posted by _Z_

gatekeeper
nice quotes!



absolutely. man will have to learn that gods consciousness pervades all things and so we must revere the earth and all life upon it.

a rule; people will change. i think people have gotten nearer to god over the last 2000 years [and before] and they will continue to do so. i don’t know what it will be but intuitively i feel there will be a catalyst for quick and massive change in the way we live and think ~ a soul change.

I feel the same way, Z... I pray that we will avoid a 3rd WW, and I think we can if that change would happen on a massive scale. I believe it is happening now, tho - just not as quickly as I would like. Then again, I'm not so worried about what lies ahead. I like to focus on my actions today, and simply work/strive/hope for a better tomorrow.

I think we can all be, or rather [are] an example to others. This is the way it should be [imo] Many will remain oblivious to thier actions, while others will see a positive change in some, and follow suite. It is my hope that people will adopt this attitude, and "be the change they want to see". I have seen it in action, so it is not at all a false hope. Was that quote by Ghandi? "Be the change you want to see"

Anyway, yeah - We are in agreement for the most part, I think.

Love

James

[_Z_]

gatekeeper
i agree with what you say there.

I like to focus on my actions today, and simply work/strive/hope for a better tomorrow.

i agree with this live now philosophy, but as a father i want my children and grandchildren to be able to do the same. in fact i think it is humanities duty to make the world into something we can always enjoy i.e. 100% reusable. i think we can literally make paradise on earth of sorts, y’know like small populations, plenty for all and fair sharing of resources both material and financial.

Z

[Gatekeeper]

Originally Posted by _Z_

gatekeeper
i agree with what you say there.



i agree with this live now philosophy, but as a father i want my children and grandchildren to be able to do the same. in fact i think it is humanities duty to make the world into something we can always enjoy i.e. 100% reusable. i think we can literally make paradise on earth of sorts, y’know like small populations, plenty for all and fair sharing of resources both material and financial.

Z

Your such a 'hippy'!!

j/k

Your viewpoint is sooo inline with my own, man...

[Groovy]

James

[_Z_]

ha, yup i am a massive hippy ~ one day we will all be hippies

[Gatekeeper]

Could be? What is the def for hippy anyway? From what I gather it is somewhat a communist mindset, yes? Then again, I've heard some suggest that the kingdom of heaven will be a communist community, so....

Hippyism, lol!

PLU - Peace/Love/Understanding

James

[_Z_]

i imagine heaven would be a place of equals, but earth has many constraints and people are greedy etc, so a free society is very difficult to obtain.