A 'real' Christmas story.

_Z_ · 12-21-2005, 08:07 PM

A real Christmas story.

I would just like to put forwards a ‘realists’ version of the birth of Christ. It is done in half – jest

so please do not take offence or literally.

A young Mary was betrothed to Joseph, Mary being only 13 years of age [approx] rather liked a younger man [the real father of Jesus]. She had an affair with this young man and become pregnant. Then she thought oh damn! I’ll get stoned to death now, hmm I better think of something quick, so she comes up with the idea of becoming miraculously pregnant by god. Now Joseph being an older man thought hmm, I can have her stoned to death or I can ‘have’ her for the rest of my life, as Mary was rather beautiful he thought the latter was a far better idea! Thus he to contrived a story concerning angels whom told him that the child would be the Son of God. Unfortunately in those days it was not possible to know the sex of a child so Joseph conceived of another cunning plan – so off they went to live in Egypt for a few years! Luckily it was a boy or else we would have had quite another story.

Jesus being of unsure birth naturally grew up to be a bit of a rebel, eventually marrying a whore!

Jesting aside…

Is the New Testament a cover story? Is the truth somewhere in between the two [biblical and realist]?

Was Jesus a green man/magi/sage or a mystic?

Is the elaborate version [bible version] more important? E.g. If Jesus was not actually the Son of God, and then would we have followed him?

I feel the world at that time had a void that was filled by Christianity, without Christ then perhaps another would have fulfilled the role.

Is the story itself a mystic thing that belongs to vision built on the currents of the Ethers? [as storytelling was in the druidic tradition] thus it is the role of the story to tell the vision and reality to somehow coincide with it.

Z

lunamoth · 12-21-2005, 08:25 PM

Z, I'm sad to see you starting to take pot shots at Christianity, and especially the Christmas story during Advent.

lunamoth

wil · 12-21-2005, 08:33 PM

z is mighty bold this morning. Saying don't take offense is like the two business men in court saying it is only business....or don't take offense to me throwing a pie in your face...but it is ok...we can take the pie in the face...can't we?

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Is the elaborate version [bible version] more important?

the bibical version spawned hundreds of thousands of churches...billions and billions sold.

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E.g. If Jesus was not actually the Son of God, and then would we have followed him?

this is answered by all the people of all the other various belief systems that don't follow him, no.

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Is the story itself a mystic thing that belongs to vision built on the currents of the Ethers? [as storytelling was in the druidic tradition] thus it is the role of the story to tell the vision and reality to somehow coincide with it.

I think it is always the underlying theme of the story that has the power... Like Santa Claus...all smoke and mirrors yet huge amount of power in the story...keeping a list of who's naughty and nice...

lunamoth · 12-21-2005, 08:55 PM

Sure, all well and good to take a pie in the face from time to time and please make my banana cream.

I'm just not sure what making up such a deragoatory spin on the story and then calling 'realist' is going to accomplish. But, that's just me.

Hope you are all having a delightful Christmas season.

peace,
lunamoth

_Z_ · 12-21-2005, 09:19 PM

Ah dear chaps I did not think you would take it like that! A pie in the face hmm more of a good ole food fight I’d say lol.

Well I didn’t put it in the monotheistic section as I thought it would be somewhat untactful.

I was wondering if the story is greater than the reality – hence the jesticular perspective of the story, I could have said it was nearer the truth, yet instead I am saying that real events aren’t particularly important!

Feel free to delete if inappropriate, and I apologise if my humour goes beyond boundaries, I consider Christmas to be a good time for looking at these things?!

I do like ole Jesus y’know even if I am not keen on his followers – of the dogmatist literalist persuasion.

lunamoth · 12-21-2005, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Z_

Ah dear chaps I did not think you would take it like that! A pie in the face hmm more of a good ole food fight I’d say lol.

Well I didn’t put it in the monotheistic section as I thought it would be somewhat untactful.

I was wondering if the story is greater than the reality – hence the jesticular perspective of the story, I could have said it was nearer the truth, yet instead I am saying that real events aren’t particularly important!

Feel free to delete if inappropriate, and I apologise if my humour goes beyond boundaries, I consider Christmas to be a good time for looking at these things?!

I do like ole Jesus y’know even if I am not keen on his followers – of the dogmatist literalist persuasion.

Z, from my perspective you are free to post your view of the Christmas story as you have, and I am free to post my reaction to it. As I am free to say that it's rather untactful no matter where you post it. But, hey! I still love ya!

peace,
lunamoth

_Z_ · 12-21-2005, 10:03 PM

Cool lunamoth! I suppose it is a little unfair how people always attack Christianity yet never any other religions! Its not like you can get me back [as my religion is unwritten] in the foodfight!

I was watching a film of the subject that was supposed to be more true to life, so naturally I took the idea all the way to gogah land

doh!

respect [honestly!]

Z

akbar · 12-22-2005, 06:00 AM

THE CHRIST YOU BELIEVE.

It was perhaps mid night. I was half asleep half awake and I dreamt a dream.
There are dreadful clergies of mosques and minarets shouting loudly at the God. It seems as if they will catch hold of him. They are bent upon smashing, threshing, whipping and killing the dissenters or non believers in the name of God. The horrible clergies push others to hell and save heaven for themselves. They will not let the God and his belongings to be desecrated by others so they will be blessed for their job. They are enthusiastic and excited to be guards of the God, how cruel they may be for the purpose though they also say that the God is almighty and merciful.

There are followers of Christ. They are also proud to be his followers but are they his and he is their? Do they not wear the cross when torturing or misbehaving with others? Perhaps they put it aside and wear again because that would have reminded them the crucifixion of Christ and they could not have tortured, misbehaved or do any wrong with others while wearing. They say that Christ is love but are they Christians as a whole? So many Christians, so many blessed people, the God is almighty and I dare not challenge. There are clergies of churches. Why they walk proudly? Do they not remember the time Christ was being taken for crucifixion? Perhaps they forget, other wise they would have been very humble and loving to all humans except wicked and cruel. Perhaps the God has bestowed upon them authority of certification for blessings. Should I not send my blessings to any one because I am not authorized and certified? I shall flung open doors of churches and meet Christ myself and then obey what ever he says. I shall attack though I am weak and alone but I have a strong will. Oh no, the God is love, Christ is love, I claim to be believer and follower so violence and quarrelling is prohibited for me. Let them do their job and I mine. I can have my Christ with out interfering in churches. My God, I am also your human, think my self to be a follower of your Christ and you know that I am neither wicked nor cruel. I hope you will forgive me. I do not claim an entry in your heaven, just pardon me my lord.

I know that you created Christ with out any father/or with father and the holy Mary was his mother. How you did that? This is your matter and none of mine as you created first human with out any father and even with out any mother. I respect Christ and Mary with out any scale of measurement.

I would have believe the Christ even the story was true as I am concerned about his mysticism, teachings and the light he brought to pervailing darkness and fundamentalism/repression.

Happy Christmiss to all friends.

Ciel · 12-22-2005, 02:16 PM

Happy Christmas Akbar,

Love and blessings in understanding and respect.

There is an eternal Christ, never born and never died.

The essential Christ, the Holy Spirit, known in essence in many names, beyond doctrine, religion and even the greatest stories ever told. Prince of Peace, King and Queen of a Kingdom where all is peace and the gift of the real Christmas, where even if for a short time all soldiers lay down there arms and be in the silent acceptance of the one thing pursued by all. Peace. In this sense maybe one day we shall live in eternal Christmas, and Peace in constant appreciation.

Peace to All.

Awaiting_the_fifth · 12-22-2005, 06:02 PM

I think it may be important for some Christians to realise that this is what many non-christians consider to be the truth, either _z_'s story or a complete fabrication. I know a number of Christians to who it always seems to be deeply shocking and disturbing to discover that someone does not share their beliefs.

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I think I can expand on (what I believe to be) _Z_'s point,

I knew a young Greek man at university who was a devout christian, we used to have fantastic discussions in starbucks between him, the Christian, me, the Buddhist and another, Indian guy who was Shiavite (sp?) Hindu.

He told me that he never used to have any real religious beliefs until one Christmas, a few years earlier, he had been watching a drama/documentary about the life of Jesus. Near the end, when he saw Jesus crucified, crying out in pain to his father, he had a life changing realisation. He decided there and then that he did not and could not know for sure whether Jesus really was the son of God and indeed, God incarnate, but it did not really matter. He was a good man, his teachings were sound, and in the end he died a terrible death (which he at least believed to be) for the good of all men.

He dedicated the rest of his life to Jesus' teachings.

Is that the sort of thing you were talking about, Z?

_Z_ · 12-22-2005, 07:53 PM

I think there was a Christ – a holy man and a healer let alone a philosopher! I would think that the reality lies somewhere in hindsight! That is that the story came about after his death or towards the end of his life – he probably had a completely different childhood to the biblical account. This is not important imho, what is important is what he became! And what followed was part of the vision also [the ‘elaborated’ story]!

Awaiting the fifth, hi

Quote:

He decided there and then that he did not and could not know for sure whether Jesus really was the son of God and indeed, God incarnate, but it did not really matter. He was a good man, his teachings were sound, and in the end he died a terrible death (which he at least believed to be) for the good of all men.

Yep something along those lines and a few others. [see above], ‘its who he is rather than the myth of who he is’, ‘yet the myth makes him more that what he was’. All in all, I would say – believe in the whole truth of him! Both the man and the story of the man! As the book is a part of his reality as so are you!

merry christmas and winter sostice everyone!

Z

wil · 12-22-2005, 08:16 PM

Quote:

He told me that he never used to have any real religious beliefs until one Christmas, a few years earlier, he had been watching a drama/documentary about the life of Jesus. Near the end, when he saw Jesus crucified, crying out in pain to his father, he had a life changing realisation.

does this answer the inititial question in anyone else's eyes? The person @5 is referring to was watching a depiction, an interpretation, actors on stage playing roles of what they perceived happened, most likely with fairly generous artistic license.

And that fictional event (the docudrama recreation) changed someone's life.

That is the power of the story.

And why wall street spends millions on advertising and understanding how the brain works...

Quahom1 · 12-22-2005, 11:04 PM

In a time and a world were things are uncertain and insecure, and hope is not in much abundance, the Christmas story tends to do both. Even if only for a little while. And for a moment, it is not hard to believe, or want to believe in the story of redemption, and miracles. But most of all, hope sparks anew.

The world falls in love a little bit, all over again.

In the days before Christmas, people spend less time at their desk, or in the shop, and more time talking with eachother. We skip our diet regimen and try different "foods" that we'd normally wouldn't (often liking them). The boss is almost "human" (LOL), and people say kind things, without thinking about it before hand. Change flows from the pocket much quicker and easier, people hold eye contact longer, smiles are much more prevelent. Letters and cards arrive from people not seen or heard from in months (sometimes years). Every day causes us to pause, because of something unexpected.

For some the hours before and just after midnight the 24th of December are almost...magical. I know for me, this is true. I sit and watch the lights and the nativity, while everyone else is asleep, and the house is quiet, and I wait, and dream.

I think it is the closest time between heaven and earth where the veil between the two is like gosamer woven linen. Past and present are moving simultaneously, and we can almost see the great advent taking place all over again. And I don't mind letting a tear or two drop in gratitude.

I think that is the "real" Christmas Story...

Peace to you all this season, and may you find your Christmas, comforting.

v/r

Q

lunamoth · 12-22-2005, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ciel

Happy Christmas Akbar,

Love and blessings in understanding and respect.

There is an eternal Christ, never born and never died.

The essential Christ, the Holy Spirit, known in essence in many names, beyond doctrine, religion and even the greatest stories ever told. Prince of Peace, King and Queen of a Kingdom where all is peace and the gift of the real Christmas, where even if for a short time all soldiers lay down there arms and be in the silent acceptance of the one thing pursued by all. Peace. In this sense maybe one day we shall live in eternal Christmas, and Peace in constant appreciation.

Peace to All.

Beautiful, Ciel. Thank you.

peace,
lunamoth

lunamoth · 12-22-2005, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

In a time and a world were things are uncertain and insecure, and hope is not in much abundance, the Christmas story tends to do both. Even if only for a little while. And for a moment, it is not hard to believe, or want to believe in the story of redemption, and miracles. But most of all, hope sparks anew.
...
Peace to you all this season, and may you find your Christmas, comforting.

v/r

Q

I agree, Q. Well said.

peace,
lunamoth