A question about death & heaven

[pedro0]

Hi everyone, I have a question that I never quite figured out...if we were to die this very instant (as Christians) do we gain entry to heaven immediately or do we hang around until the final judgment? If we go to heaven right away then what's the point of having a final judgment?

[Nick the Pilot]

Pedro,

Since I believe in reincarnation, I will give you such an answer. I believe we are judged after each incarnation. When incarnations become no longer necessary, the "final" Judgement is held at the end of that life.

[Prober]

An answer from a "conservative" Christian position...

The dead sleep in the ground until Christ comes.

Then the "dead in Christ" (the just) rise first and those who are alive (the just) in Christ are "caught up to meet them in the air". They are changed "in the twinkling of an eye" into our "incorruptable" bodies.

Then the dead unjust rise and join the living unjust and all behold the final judgement.

The just go to Heaven with Christ and live with Him for a thousand years, at which point the "New Jerusalem" comes down to a "cleansed" earth and the just live forever in the new Earth.

There are, I suppose, many versions of this story.

Best Regards,
Mark

[InLove]

Originally Posted by Prober

There are, I suppose, many versions of this story.

I agree, Prober. I suppose the same thing. And I have tested it, as I know you have. Ultimately, the first death, no matter how one tries to explain it, is traveled one person at a time. At least, that is the best sense I can make of it. I hold on to the hope that there is something beautiful in crossing this bridge or river or however we get there. All I know for now is that living with that hope is what matters.

Beinvenido, pedro0. (I am not sure if I have the right tense and stuff there (I may have just welcomed myself, lol, but I am too tired to look it up at the moment! What I mean, of course, is "welcome to you") .

InPeace,
InLove

[Prober]

Originally Posted by InLove

I hold on to the hope that there is something beautiful in crossing this bridge or river or however we get there. All I know for now is that living with that hope is what matters.

InPeace,
InLove

Big Amen to that.

P.S. I think that phrase is "bien menudo" (er sumthin')

Just kidding...Welcome Pedro!

[InLove]

Originally Posted by Prober

P.S. I think that phrase is "bien menudo" (er sumthin')

Naw, from what I understand, that is for a hangover.

[Muslimwoman]

Hi all

When you 'sleep' in the ground are you effectively dead until the Day of Judgement' or are you questioned, in the grave, about your actions during your life?

Just curious, it's just one of the many beliefs that are similar between Christianity and Islam (sometimes I forget who I am lol).

Salaam

[Prober]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

When you 'sleep' in the ground are you effectively dead until the Day of Judgement'

I believe "Yes".

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by InLove

I agree, Prober. I suppose the same thing. And I have tested it, as I know you have. Ultimately, the first death, no matter how one tries to explain it, is traveled one person at a time.

I have a different idea about this. To me, the "first death" is death to self, or the small ego, and inviting Christ/Spirit/Self (the big cosmic Self of the Vedas, if you will) in. After that life is a continual process of "dying to self" and "living in the Spirit." In this way, deep peace is reached, even a kind of immortality (which has to do with realizing that all is One and not only ego but all boundaries and separation are illusion), so that the "second death" (death of the physical body), while still scary, becomes less of a big deal. Isn't there some scripture about that--that those who are "born again in Christ" or what-have-you are "unaffected by the second death"?

To relate back to the original question, I believe that when the individual undergoes this "first death," this dying to the small self/ego, she instantly enters heaven, although not in any afterlife sort of sense. But the gates of heaven do open, and then it's a progressive walk inside throughout the rest of life, which is more and more a letting go of selfish desires and more and more an allowing of Spirit to work through oneself.

Hope that's not too irrelevant to the question asked.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Pathless

To relate back to the original question, I believe that when the individual undergoes this "first death," this dying to the small self/ego, she instantly enters heaven, although not in any afterlife sort of sense. But the gates of heaven do open, and then it's a progressive walk inside throughout the rest of life, which is more and more a letting go of selfish desires and more and more an allowing of Spirit to work through oneself.

Hope that's not too irrelevant to the question asked.

Hi Pathless

Sorry I know this post was to somebody else but may I ask you a question about it.

You say she enters heaven but not in any afterlife way. I don't know how to put this without sounding silly I am assuming you believe in reincarnation, so is heaven for you a sort of 'stop off' point for the soul before it is reborn? Sorry stop off is a daft way to put it but I don't know how to express my question. Is heaven for you a physical place or a spiritual state for the soul? Hope you manage to understand my question.

Salaam

[mee]

Do You Have an Immortal Spirit? - Jehovah's Witnesses Official Web Site
What is the condition of the dead? And what happens to the spirit when a person dies? good link

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by Prober

An answer from a "conservative" Christian position...

Orthodox belief is in line with this, Mark.

I think the only distinction is that those who are beatified (and these outnumber the 'official' lists by a significant factor) do not 'sleep' but continue the work by their witness and according to God's Will.

Catholicism and Orthodoxy believe in the 'communion of saints' as a living presence in the Church, they are part of the 'cloud of witnesses' (Hebrews 12:1) and can sometimes make their presence known among the living.

Even so, they have not yet attained the 'final form', which will happen "in the twinkling of an eye" – they live and subsist in Him (as do we) until the time is fulfilled and they, and pray God we, put on those "incorruptable" bodies.

Greetings, Pedro.

Thomas

[Prober]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Catholicism and Orthodoxy believe in the 'communion of saints' as a living presence in the Church, they are part of the 'cloud of witnesses' (Hebrews 12:1) and can sometimes make their presence known among the living.

Thomas

Interesting. In your opinion, does the "saints under the altar" comment in Revelations refer to this?

Always kinda wondered...

[mee]

Originally Posted by Prober

An answer from a "conservative" Christian position...

The dead sleep in the ground until Christ comes.



Best Regards,
Mark

yes ,and that is what prober is doing , and when the time comes FOR THE EARTHLY RESURRECTION he will hear Jesus voice and then he can live in a paradise earth .JOHN 5;28-29that will be nice

[China Cat Sunflower]

Either that or he's a rabbit in Wisconsin.

Chris