A problem?

[Postmaster]

The Baha'i faith doesn't have any ritual practises? This is ancient and not valid for today’s society in your view? I gather that salvation from intellect and reading the holy scriptures of the Baha'i faith is the one of the most important parts of the faith. Since probably salvation comes through reason in your view. Whereas in my religion, Greek orthodoxy as you know rituals is a big part of the faith, we even kiss our Icons, Cross ourselves etc. My concern with the Baha'i faith is people with learning difficulties or a handicap, or people not being able to read at all wouldn't be able to really find salvation through the Baha'i as easily as they would with Christianity, since a big part of our salvation comes from our rituals. As this is a universal expression of love, devotion and faith that God understands.

[arthra]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

The Baha'i faith doesn't have any ritual practises? This is ancient and not valid for today’s society in your view? I gather that salvation from intellect and reading the holy scriptures of the Baha'i faith is the one of the most important parts of the faith. Since probably salvation comes through reason in your view. Whereas in my religion, Greek orthodoxy as you know rituals is a big part of the faith, we even kiss our Icons, Cross ourselves etc. My concern with the Baha'i faith is people with learning difficulties or a handicap, or people not being able to read at all wouldn't be able to really find salvation through the Baha'i as easily as they would with Christianity, since a big part of our salvation comes from our rituals. As this is a universal expression of love, devotion and faith that God understands.

Greetings Postmaster!

It's been awhile since we've "talked"... I recall your interest in our Faith from a year or so ago.

I think there are a lot of people who feel conforted by the rituals they feel comfortable with. You may know also I'm sure that rituals are one of the things that seem to separate many people from each other....

Years ago I was visiting the Cathedral of Mexico City with some other touristas and there was quite a scene because one of them refused to have anything pit her head to visit the various Saint shrines along the inside of the walls. Well she happened to be Jewish and refused to abide with this "ritual".
There are many other examples that I'm sure you are aware of...such as different ways children are baptized in different churches and whether we kiss the ring of a potentate or whether we kneel to a passing cross or whether the host is raised and what place this occurs facing the congregation or away from it. I could go on as you know...

But in the Baha'i Faith, ritual has been reduced to a minimum anbd we have no professional priests or mullas who have an interest many times in guarding these rituals and how they're performed. My view is that rituals are kept to a minimum so that we can not be distracted by petty issues about rituals and which ones are correct or which are the most sanctimonious and so on. Unity is the keynote of our Faith and since ritual is one of the things that seem to have divided people this is probably why it is minimized in our Faith.

In the same regard though Baha'is are not insisting that Greek Orthodox Churches destroy their ikons or not observe their ceremonies...that is we are not iconoclasts. But once someone becomes a Baha'i it is expected that they will eventually adopt a Baha'i style of worship or prayer...

You might yourself want to visit a Baha'i Centre someday and see how Baha'is worship and pray.

You asked about people with learning difficulties and handicaps in the Faith and I can assure you that of those people I've met with handicaps are most certainly accepted as Baha'is and valued. They don't have to kneel or stand nor are they asked to do anything physically in our Faith... They can just be who they are and we see the soul of the believer before God regardless of how defective or limited the physical body is. A few years ago I personally knew a blind lady who was secretary of her community and did a very commendable job...She used braille also to take notes and translate them.

Baha'is in our gatherings can be handicapped and say "Allah'u'Abha" and give praise and worship along with any of the most physically fit and be considered for the highest elected positions in our Faith or appointive ones! Everyone has capacities in the New Day to respond to the Revelation.

- Art

[BruceDLimber]

Hi again, Postmaster! :-)

As was said, the Baha'i Faith minimizes rituals.

in fact, we Baha'is have five--and ONLY five--rituals:

- Daily obligatory prayer (each individual is to say any one of three such prayers in accordance with the instructions provided for that prayer,

- Daily recitation of "Allah-u-Abha" ("God is Most Glorious") 95 times,

- The annual Baha'i Fast,

- The Baha'i wedding vow,

- The Baha'i burial prayer.

And that's i1!

(Also, we are specifically discouraged from creating any additional rituals.)

Works for us! :-)

Best,

Bruce

[Postmaster]

Daily recitation of "Allah-u-Abha" ("God is Most Glorious") 95 times,

Are they compulsory? What happens if English speakers cant proounce Arabic words?

[arthra]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Are they compulsory? What happens if English speakers cant proounce Arabic words?

Baha'is are happy to say ninety five Allah'u'Abhas a day... Some use prayer beads... (They have prayer beads in many religions, even Christianity!) I count on my fingers... Also, no one stands over you and corrects you or sees that you say them either...we pray in privacy.

Being an English speaker myself I can tell you that "Allah'u'Abha" is easy to say... My spiritual parent an Oklahoman Indian used to inflect it a little differently than I did later but everyone loved it.

Another reason we have no problem pronouncing is that it is the Baha'i salutation and way we say goodbye... So everyone gets practise that way...

We also have some favorite Baha'i songs that resonate in everyones' hearts like "Aaaalllaaaho abhaaaa".

Allah'u'Abha sounds a little like "Aloha!"

Finally, I'd suggest that Allah'u'Abha is not that diffficult to say compared to Hallelujah... just another way to praise God.

- Art

[BruceDLimber]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Are they compulsory?

Yes, they are, although the daily obligatory prayer, recitation of "Allah-u-Abha" (which, BTW, is pronounced "Allah--oo--Abha"), and the Fast are laws of individual conscience and responsibility not enforceable by anyone else or any Baha'i administrative body.

Baha'i marriage is mandatory and enforced, though if one's partner is some other religion, that marriage ceremony may be held too (both must be on the same day).

The Baha'i burial prayer is technically mandatory but clearly can't be enforced if non-Baha'i relatives choose to do something else.

Regards,

Bruce

[arthra]

Interestingly the word we use is "Obligatory" rather than compulsory or mandatory.

The fast has limits to it....There are age limits and you must not be ill or have medical issues with fasting or be travelling over a long distance or working hard labor.

There are also provisions for missing obligatory prayers...

I'm not sure I'd call the Baha'i marriage ceremony a "ritual" so much as it requires a simple affirmation to abide by the will of God in front of witnesses. There is more involved I think in the civil requirements for marriage than say in the Baha'i marriage "ceremony" itself... You have to have blood tests and obtain certain documents and signatures.

The prayer for the dead is only for adult Baha'is...

- Art

[Postmaster]

This might be a little off topic but you know what latest research has found out? People born into religious families have a greater chance of developing OCD. But hey..People such as Leonardo di Vinci suffered from such condition. Psychologists have diagnosed it through most of his unfinished art.

[arthra]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

This might be a little off topic but you know what latest research has found out? People born into religious families have a greater chance of developing OCD. But hey..People such as Leonardo di Vinci suffered from such condition. Psychologists have diagnosed it through most of his unfinished art.

Huh!

There's a site I found on "OCD" at

http://www.brainphysics.com/ocd.php

I haven't read the research you're referring to.. Maybe it's just me but I'm just a tad skeptical when it comes to diagnosing people over say three hundred years ago...

- Art

[jiii]

arthra-

Although I am familiar with no formal studies, I have also read that Leonardo da Vinci was neurotic...which could mean many different things, I guess (what neurosis exactly?). This idea was mentioned in the context of psychology, where it was noted that removing one's neurosis was not necessarily important, and could even be harmful, if it cannot be replaced with a creative source of personality. Da Vinci was mentioned as an example of a person that was neurotic who nonetheless went on to become an amazing individual.

Not the background info you were looking for, I'm sure, but I thought I'd second having heard that, at least.

-jiii

[Booko]

Originally Posted by arthra

You asked about people with learning difficulties and handicaps in the Faith and I can assure you that of those people I've met with handicaps are most certainly accepted as Baha'is and valued. They don't have to kneel or stand nor are they asked to do anything physically in our Faith... They can just be who they are and we see the soul of the believer before God regardless of how defective or limited the physical body is. A few years ago I personally knew a blind lady who was secretary of her community and did a very commendable job...She used braille also to take notes and translate them.

One of the members in our community has MS and is wheelchair bound. This means we have to be careful about where we plan events, as we have to be able to get her inside in some dignified fashion. Our community has no Baha'i Center, so it's pretty much people's private homes, though occasionally for larger events we use a neighborhood clubhouse. Especially for holy days.

Baha'is in our gatherings can be handicapped and say "Allah'u'Abha" and give praise and worship along with any of the most physically fit and be considered for the highest elected positions in our Faith or appointive ones! Everyone has capacities in the New Day to respond to the Revelation.

Also, if someone is sick or infirm the Writings make it clear they are not obliged to do things the way they otherwise would. I had surgery once and was down for a few days, and it seemed really *odd* that I couldn't stand up and say the Obligatory Prayer, but doctor's orders are doctor's orders, and the Writings are clear, so I didn't.

[Booko]

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

Baha'i marriage is mandatory and enforced, though if one's partner is some other religion, that marriage ceremony may be held too (both must be on the same day).

Uh, gee Bruce, you make it sound like we're subject to shotgun weddings, but I know that's not what you meant.

If a Baha'i gets married, there must be a Baha'i wedding, though that can be as brief and stripped down as you like.

The Baha'i burial prayer is technically mandatory but clearly can't be enforced if non-Baha'i relatives choose to do something else.

And in practice if non-Baha'i relatives would be upset by one, we stay the heck out of their way out of respect for them. We can always go to the gravesite later when the family isn't there and recite the Prayer for the Dead. It's better to do that than upset anyone at such a time.

[arthra]

Hey Booko! Deviled Hen!

Good to see you here!

- Art

[lunamoth]

Add my welcome too! Nice to see you here Booko.

luna

[Postmaster]

Originally Posted by arthra

Huh!

There's a site I found on "OCD" at

http://www.brainphysics.com/ocd.php

I haven't read the research you're referring to.. Maybe it's just me but I'm just a tad skeptical when it comes to diagnosing people over say three hundred years ago...

- Art

It's not just his unfinished art they were looking at but other things too.