A problem?

[BruceDLimber]

What you seem to overlook, Postmaster, is that "never" is an EXTREMELY long time! . . .

So when you say something will never happen, IMHO you're pretty far out on a limb....

Peace,

Bruce

[9Harmony]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

ROFL! I love that story.

me too!

[smkolins]

A couple thoughts....

The rules and rituals, if that's the right word, the Baha'i Faith does have are for our benefit, not for God's. They are not in any way binding on Him.

Exceptions for various things are explicit and specific as well as general... for example there are age and health exceptions for fasting, there are options of "should" go on pilgrimage and giving contriubutions (let alone calculating for oneself how much to give), and even exceptions like:

"Since thou hast adorned them, O my Lord, with the ornament of the fast prescribed by Thee, do Thou adorn them also with the ornament of Thine acceptance, through Thy grace and bountiful favor. For the doings of men are all dependent upon Thy good-pleasure, and are conditioned by Thy behest. Shouldst Thou regard him who hath broken the fast as one who hath observed it, such a man would be reckoned among them who from eternity had been keeping the fast. And shouldst Thou decree that he who hath observed the fast hath broken it, that person would be numbered with such as have caused the Robe of Thy Revelation to be stained with dust, and been far removed from the crystal waters of this living Fountain."

This isn't to make God out to be contradictory - to establish laws and then disobey them. Laws are dependent. The laws of physics, as a metaphor, might help.... Gravity defines up and down - yet this up and down are dependent on the source of gravity. So down from North America is, it could be said, up for Australians since they are on the far side of the planet. But if you define down as towards the center of the earth, then down there is down here even if the non-essential qualities of down change from place to place (or for example culture to culture.) If you extend assumptions beyond their validity you have contraditions - up is down and so on. Find out how the truth depends on truth and you resolve contraditions and laws that could become oppressive in some particular circumstance turn out to be so only when applied in ways never meant.

Now allowing for disobeince being obedience doesn't free us from doing our duty. If a child disobeys forgiveness may be at hand - or it may not. It depends on what serves the good in the long run. And none can judge this good better than God.

[IMSassafras]

Post coming soon!!!

[Mick]

Originally Posted by arthra

Here is an interesting piece from Baha'i history of how Abdul-Baha advised Shoghi Effendi against drinking coffee!

At the same time, the treachery of the Covenant-breakers in the Holy Land reached a point where the Master felt compelled to warn his young grandson against drinking coffee in the homes of any of the Bahá'ís in the fear that he would be poisoned. At the age of fifteen, however, Shoghi Effendi was forced to drink from the bitter cup of sorrow which the machinations of Covenant-breakers would continue to fill for the rest of his life. At this young age, he was denied the opportunity to travel to North America with his grandfather on what was to become a historic journey. One member of the party accompanying `Abdu'l-Bahá to the West, later to become a Covenant-breaker, conspired with Italian health officials in Naples, and falsely claimed that the boy's eyes were diseased. Shoghi Effendi was heartbroken.

Source:

http://bahai-library.com/biography/l...i.effendi.html

I would be willing to "bet" (if gambling were permitted) that some of our most seasoned Baha'is here have never heard the story about the Master advising Shoghi Effendi not to drink coffee...

- Art

I, for one, had never heard the story. Thank you, Friend.

[IMSassafras]

Originally Posted by Awaiting_the_fifth

Many thanks for your response.

I am getting the impression that to Baha'is, a ritual is something that is shared with a congregation of people, hence excempting your solitary prayer. Is this a fair assesment?

This is the day when dogmas must be sacrificed in our search for truth. We must leave behind all save what is necessary for the needs of today, nor attach ourselves to any form or ritual which is in opposition to moral evolution. (Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 67)

Congregational prayer is just one of many.

Originally Posted by Awaiting_the_fifth

Also, I find this statement puzzling:

Originally Posted by IMSassafras
This type of prayer is not meant to give rise to discord, hatred, or disunion, thus I, personally, do not see this it as ritualistic.

You seem to be saying that your rituals are actually not rituals, simply because they do not produce discord.

I am quite certain that no religious group would consider that their own rituals DO produce such discord.

My original statement was not meant to be interpreted in such a way that would give Baha'i prayer any exclusivity to being exempt to the rise of discord, hatred, or disunion. I was simply stating a seemingly factual statement. I was not trying to imply other religions do cause these things. I was simply trying to underline the fact that Baha'u'llah has eliminated the chance of causing "discord, hatred, or disunion" by abolishing congregational prayer, with the exception of the Prayer for the Dead.

There are other things Baha'u'llah has abolished in order to eliminate the chance of causing "discord, hatred, or disunion". All of these abolished items can be found in the Kitab-i-Adqas, the Book of Laws.

I would like to define what I mean when referring to congregational prayer. When I refer to congregational prayer I am not referring to members congregating together and praying, I am referring to the congregation of members in front of a leader, a priest or mullah. This leader has sets of proscribed and memorized phrases, statements, and gestures which are ritualistically subjected toward the members and the members are to preform in a certain way during certain times throughout the meeting and the promise that these rituals will bring some sort of salvation.

Originally Posted by Awaiting_the_fifth

Just out of interest, my own practice is mostly a solitary one. I have a shrine in my home where I sit alone and meditate. Would this be considered a ritual?

Well, I am not one to dictate to others about what they do. Although, to answer your question to the best of my ability, I would have to say there is nothing wrong with meditation in the privacy of one's home. To my understanding, though, Baha'is are not to idolize an object or picture. Baha'is do have pictures of 'Abdu'l-Baha, the son of Baha'u'llah, but we do not have pictures of Baha'u'llah and we do not sit and pray in front these pictures. We do not worship or idolize any pictures or representative objects of the Central Figures, the Bab, Baha'u'llah, or 'Abdu'l-Baha, nor Shoghi Effendi or Hands of the Cause of God or the members of the Universal House of Justice and so on.

Concerning your own practices, I would like to ask you a question. Would you consider your shrine and acts of meditation divisive or dis-unifying?


warmly,
Sassafras

[IMSassafras]

I have noticed some errors in this paragraph I would like to correct:

I would like to define what I mean when referring to congregational prayer. When I refer to congregational prayer I am not referring to members congregating together and praying, I am referring to the congregation of members in front of a leader, a priest or mullah. This leader has sets of prescribed and memorized phrases, statements, and gestures which are ritualistically subjected toward the members and the members are to perform in a certain way during certain times throughout the meeting and the promise that these rituals will bring some sort of salvation.

If a moderator could pleace make these changes, it would be appreciated.

warmly,
Sassafras

[Booko]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

That’s an other point.. Industries would put a propaganda campaign against the Baha'i faith if it was to gain any serious popularity.

Why so? There are a number of Christian sects here in the South that have standards that do not include smoking, but the tobacco industry has never had a propaganda campaign against them.

We are not an active force in trying to wipe out alcohol use. We simply choose not to use it ourselves. What everyone else does is their business.

If I was magically granted the choice for the Baha'i faith to stay or disappear I would say stay since it's more positive then some other monotheist religions out there. I'd never convert but I say there are possibly some very important teachings. Personally don’t think it's going to hit off in the west. I see it gaining more popularity in

Asia.

Each area of the world has its own big challenge in the Baha'i Faith. In the West, it's the law against consumption of alcohol. In Asia, it's the law that prohibits arranged marriages. In many cultures, it's the law about equality of men and women.

The reverse is also true. Each culture has something it finds very easy to accept.