A problem? - Page 3

Postmaster · 08-30-2006, 08:04 PM

So your telling me it would be ok to destroy a massive part of western culture, destroy many buissnesses and liviley hoods. Look at it from a biological point of view, we have the best alcohol dehydrogenase genes in the world too, from drinking it since ancient times. Will never happen, a dead end. We didn't stop eating pork when christinity came along either. The Baha'i faith can't compromise though.

9Harmony · 08-30-2006, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Postmaster

So your telling me it would be ok to destroy a massive part of western culture, destroy many buissnesses and liviley hoods restructure takes time and money. Look at it from a biological point of view, we have the best alcohol dehydrogenase genes in the world too, from drinking it since ancient times. Will never happen, a dead end. We didn't stop eating pork when christinity came along either. The Baha'i faith can't compromise though.

Hi Postmaster,

Nice to read you again.

No, i don't think that's what we're saying at all.

None of what the Baha'i Faith proposes will be done by force. It is all done on a voluntary basis. We would never make anyone do anything according to our beliefs. What has to happen is that hearts will change and recognize Baha'u'llah on their own, then and only then will these things happen. By the choice of the individuals involved.

Does that help?

Have a great day!

Loving Greetings, Amy

Postmaster · 08-30-2006, 10:16 PM

I'm talking about the theology of the Baha'i faith with the acceptance of people of course destroy the alcohol culture of the west. But what I'm saying it will never happen, I would even bet my car on it! Considering this is Gods next message, he didn't make it too appealing to his people on a social perspective. After all isn't religion made up of both the social and spiritual parts? As is said in the Baha'i faith? Also if a Baha'i drank alcohol would that make them a covenant breaker?

9Harmony · 08-30-2006, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Postmaster

I'm talking about the theology of the Baha'i faith with the acceptance of people of course destroy the alcohol culture of the west. But what I'm saying it will never happen, I would even bet my car on it! Considering this is Gods next message, he didn't make it too appealing to his people on a social perspective. After all isn't religion made up of both the social and spiritual parts? As is said in the Baha'i faith? Also if a Baha'i drank alcohol would that make them a covenant breaker?

Hi again,

you're probably right, i doubt that it occurs within my lifetime as well. but as to ever happening...i believe it will, if it truly is God's Will, it will happen eventually. Remember the Baha'i Revelation is the umbrella under which all future Revelations for the next 500,000 years will be under. Just because we in this culture, in this age, find it difficult to imagine happening does not mean it won't.

God's laws are not meant to be comfortable. Many of them are tests for those who follow them, does that mean they are wrong? Or that we just have alot of growing up to do?

And no, that would not make a person a covenant breaker. The designation of Covenant Breaker is not handed out lightly, and it only applies to those few individuals who try to usurp authority for themselves but only after repeated attempts to help them try to rectify their conduct.

the reason alcohol is not permitted in this dispensation is because it clouds our vision. the reason it was allowed in the past is because it was often healthier than drinking the water, in the past water was often the cause of illness as we didn't have the capacity to purify it, alcohol was allowed and considered safer. But times have changed.

at least that's my understanding.

Postmaster · 08-31-2006, 01:22 AM

So in a Baha'i point of view Alcohol will be a substance that will eventually be rejected by humanity. But what you forget to mention is Arab Muslims loved there caffeine from coffee etc and even bought it into Europe. Isn't that too a substances which alters your state of mind by stimulation? Just as Alcohol Alters your state of mind by sedation? Yeah we used alcohol as a way of sterilisation but thats just a factor.

arthra · 08-31-2006, 02:03 AM

Hello my old friend Postmaster!

You may be over reacting just a tad on this alcohol issue...

Maybe you live around a place that is dependent on grapes ...

But alcohol will be around I'm sure..For us Baha'is because it could be used as a fuel or a cleanser.

Remember we're talking here about Baha'i law that forbids alcohol use for Baha'is.

Where I happen to live people do abuse alcohol a lot...

It accounts for lost days at work, accidents, health problems and driving under the influence but even so and not withstanding as far as I know we Baha'is have never initiated a prohibition campaign against all the alcohol abuse among the general population around us.

In friendship!

- Art

Postmaster · 08-31-2006, 03:25 AM

Caffeine has negative effects too and regardless of the negative effects of alcohol that still doesn't change the fact that the west will ever give it up. Largest alcohol abuse countries in the world seem to abuse everything, food (obesity ), drugs, sexuality etc. Try and enjoy a glass of red wine with your meal in France, Italy or Greece.

9Harmony · 08-31-2006, 03:47 AM

nothing shows up in ocean when i type in 'caffeine', so can't tell you. either it's referred to in something that hasn't been translated yet, or it's not an issue in this dispensation. maybe the next one

arthra · 08-31-2006, 05:12 AM

Here is an interesting piece from Baha'i history of how Abdul-Baha advised Shoghi Effendi against drinking coffee!

At the same time, the treachery of the Covenant-breakers in the Holy Land reached a point where the Master felt compelled to warn his young grandson against drinking coffee in the homes of any of the Bahá'ís in the fear that he would be poisoned. At the age of fifteen, however, Shoghi Effendi was forced to drink from the bitter cup of sorrow which the machinations of Covenant-breakers would continue to fill for the rest of his life. At this young age, he was denied the opportunity to travel to North America with his grandfather on what was to become a historic journey. One member of the party accompanying `Abdu'l-Bahá to the West, later to become a Covenant-breaker, conspired with Italian health officials in Naples, and falsely claimed that the boy's eyes were diseased. Shoghi Effendi was heartbroken.

Source:

http://bahai-library.com/biography/l...i.effendi.html

I would be willing to "bet" (if gambling were permitted) that some of our most seasoned Baha'is here have never heard the story about the Master advising Shoghi Effendi not to drink coffee...

- Art

Postmaster · 08-31-2006, 11:57 AM

That’s an other point.. Industries would put a propaganda campaign against the Baha'i faith if it was to gain any serious popularity.

If I was magically granted the choice for the Baha'i faith to stay or disappear I would say stay since it's more positive then some other monotheist religions out there. I'd never convert but I say there are possibly some very important teachings. Personally don’t think it's going to hit off in the west. I see it gaining more popularity in Asia.

9Harmony · 08-31-2006, 03:38 PM

Another of my favorite stories about Abdu'l-Baha relates that among a gathering of the friends the Master was offered the choice of coffee or tea to drink. He reflected and said, "Coffee is a material drink. Tea is a spiritual drink."

(You can at this point sense everyone leaning forward in anticipation of the Great Wisdom He was about to impart to them.)

"I think," He announced, "I'll have coffee." ;-)

arthra · 08-31-2006, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Postmaster

That’s an other point.. Industries would put a propaganda campaign against the Baha'i faith if it was to gain any serious popularity.

If I was magically granted the choice for the Baha'i faith to stay or disappear I would say stay since it's more positive then some other monotheist religions out there. I'd never convert but I say there are possibly some very important teachings. Personally don’t think it's going to hit off in the west. I see it gaining more popularity in Asia.

Well Postmaster....

Thanks for your post and appreciations:

I would say stay since it's more positive then some other monotheist religions out there. I'd never convert but I say there are possibly some very important teachings.

I doubt many of us presently have had the time to ponder a possible industry propaganda campaign against Baha'i Faith but you know such a campaign might just "give us a boost" and put us over the "top"!

"God works in mysterious ways His wonders to perform."

Postmaster · 08-31-2006, 04:56 PM

9Harmony, do you think that that being a spiritual leader through bloodline is as silly as being a mathematician through bloodline?

lunamoth · 08-31-2006, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9Harmony

Another of my favorite stories about Abdu'l-Baha relates that among a gathering of the friends the Master was offered the choice of coffee or tea to drink. He reflected and said, "Coffee is a material drink. Tea is a spiritual drink."

(You can at this point sense everyone leaning forward in anticipation of the Great Wisdom He was about to impart to them.)

"I think," He announced, "I'll have coffee." ;-)

ROFL! I love that story.

9Harmony · 08-31-2006, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Postmaster

9Harmony, do you think that that being a spiritual leader through bloodline is as silly as being a mathematician through bloodline?

well, yes, i would say that because of your bloodline you think deserve you the title of spiritual leader is quite silly, but that is not the case in the Baha'i Faith. Those who have authority in this Faith were appointed by the One who had authority prior.