A problem?

[arthra]

OK... So Postmaster..

How have you been?

Smell any roses lately?

- Art

[Postmaster]

Yep.. especially when there’s a scent of a rose!

[Awaiting_the_fifth]

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

As was said, the Baha'i Faith minimizes rituals.

...

- Daily obligatory prayer (each individual is to say any one of three such prayers in accordance with the instructions provided for that prayer,

- Daily recitation of "Allah-u-Abha" ("God is Most Glorious") 95 times,

....

Please excuse this intrusion onto your board, I do not mean to be deliberately contensious, but there is something I do not understand about this.

You say that your faith minimises rituals, but each individual must say daily prayers AND recite this phrase 95 times? daily?

That actually sounds like an awful lot of ritual.

[Postmaster]

.... double post mistake.

[Postmaster]

I was going to mention that too but instead mentioned OCD and religion because the Baha'i faith considers science one and one with religion and had the idea that rituals were abolished, as what I read off Baha'i sites?. Was surprised to feel like you were trying to undermine me by one of the posts, undermine my faith but not myself! If you get frustrated by all my questions simply don’t answer them, you’re not obliged to.

[IMSassafras]

Originally Posted by Awaiting_the_fifth

Please excuse this intrusion onto your board, I do not mean to be deliberately contensious, but there is something I do not understand about this.

You say that your faith minimises rituals, but each individual must say daily prayers AND recite this phrase 95 times? daily?

That actually sounds like an awful lot of ritual.

Hello Awaiting the Fifth,

You are welcome to ask any question your heart desires with no feelings of intrusion or contention from anyone here.

Bahá'u'lláh warned us about how rituals can bring harm to the moral evolution of mankind. Certain rituals of the past have been abolished by Bahá'u'lláh like the uncleanness for the woman which thus forbid her from observing duties of prayer and fasting. [T]hese forms and rituals differ in the various churches and amongst the different sects, and even contradict one another; giving rise to discord, hatred, and disunion. (Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 143) Congregational prayer is another example of ritual that has been abolished except for the Prayer for the Dead.

This quote will farther explain:

Congregational prayer, in the sense of formal obligatory prayer which is to be recited in accordance with a prescribed ritual as, for example, is the custom in Islam where Friday prayer in the mosque is led by an imam, has been annulled in the Bahá'í Dispensation. The Prayer for the Dead is the only congregational prayer prescribed by Bahá'í law. It is to be recited by one of those present while the remainder of the party stands in silence; the reader has no special status. The congregation is not required to face the Qiblih.
The three daily Obligatory Prayers are to be recited individually, not in congregation. There is no prescribed way for the recital of the many other Bahá'í prayers, and all are free to use such non-obligatory prayers in gatherings or individually as they please. In this regard, Shoghi Effendi states that ...although the friends are thus left to follow their own inclination, ... they should take the utmost care that any manner they practise should not acquire too rigid a character, and thus develop into an institution. This is a point which the friends should always bear in mind, lest they deviate from the clear path indicated in the Teachings. (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 173)

The act of stating "Allah'u'Abha" 95 times a day is a ritual of sorts, although, because it is said individually, in privacy, it is more of a spiritual connection with God, Himself, than an out-right ritual. It is a way to cleanse the channel between your soul and God.

This type of prayer is not meant to give rise to discord, hatred, or disunion, thus I, personally, do not see this it as ritualistic. For, how else are we to communicate with God, the Unknowable, the Wise? What better way is there than to pray individually, in private? There is no one present to judge, to offer criticism, or to chastise. Just God, and He is present only to help strengthen our soul.

I hope my explanation has offered a bit more understanding to this spiritual act of prayer.

warmly
Sassafras

[arthra]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

I was going to mention that too but instead mentioned OCD and religion because the Baha'i faith considers science one and one with religion and had the idea that rituals were abolished, as what I read off Baha'i sites?. Was surprised to feel like you were trying to undermine me by one of the posts, undermine my faith but not myself! If you get frustrated by all my questions simply don’t answer them, you’re not obliged to.

Just curious Postmaster... Who do you feel is "trying to undermine" you? or your faith? Please elaborate...

- Art

[arthra]

Hello Sassafras!

Good to see your post today....

One reason ritual is reduced to the minimum in Baha'i Faith I think is that we do not have a professional priesthood or clergy... and no "ceremonial rituals" are observed in Baha'i Houses of Worship.

In many religions the Priest or Mullah or what have you is also the expert on ritual and is trained to use say a sacred language such as Sanskrit or Latin or maybe Arabic...etc. Also there are rituals in the temples and churches and so on.

- Art

[Postmaster]

Within 500 years of Christ, there was a few similar or very similar messages to Christianity some before Christ. But they never took off, even when the emperor of Rome was practising, take for instance Mithraism. Christianity was well marketed for the masses and the west and so won. I have scrutinised Christianity to the max, I still have solid reasons to still be a Christian regardless. The Baha'i faith is not very convenient to the masses or the west regardless of how well the core idea is for society i.e. progressive revelation. And I think that’s what discredits some of the possibly very important and truthful factors of the faith. Same would apply to Manichaeism


2 years ago I resisted to even believing god existed and was very cynical towards any religion, something just hit me one day.

[Postmaster]

Forgot to say why Mithraism went down hill, simply because it was an all male religion, but some very similar concepts to Christianity. That wasn't the only one there were more similar cults and religions even before of saviors preaching such ideas of social equality etc. Wish I remembered them haha.. Baha'i's aren’t allowed to drink alcohol, it's a multi billion pounds industry and the west lives off it.

[Awaiting_the_fifth]

Many thanks for your response.

I am getting the impression that to Baha'is, a ritual is something that is shared with a congregation of people, hence excempting your solitary prayer. Is this a fair assesment?

Also, I find this statement puzzling:

Originally Posted by IMSassafras

This type of prayer is not meant to give rise to discord, hatred, or disunion, thus I, personally, do not see this it as ritualistic.

You seem to be saying that your rituals are actually not rituals, simply because they do not produce discord.

I am quite certain that no religious group would consider that their own rituals DO produce such discord.


Just out of interest, my own practice is mostly a solitary one. I have a shrine in my home where I sit alone and meditate. Would this be considered a ritual?

[arthra]

Hmmm..

Postmaster...

I suppose we're kind of "free falling" here through various topics..If you'd like to focus on something say I'll do my best to respond.

Please be assured Awaiting and Postmaster that we Baha'is are not looking down on you for having the religious practices you have... It's defintely your business.

I suppose someone could argue that waking up in the morning and brushing their teeth is a kind of "ritual"...Well maybe..but I like to clean my stale mouth?!

Here's a definition of ritual that might help:

The prescribed order of a religious ceremony.
The body of ceremonies or rites used in a place of worship.

The prescribed form of conducting a formal secular ceremony: the ritual of an inauguration.
The body of ceremonies used by a fraternal organization.

_____________________________

Having a minimum of rituals means to me there are less things for people to cling to and argue about

Take "Baptism" as an example... How many ways are there to baptise..and what words are used and when should baptism occur..at what stage in life? this is just an example of how contention can occur around a ritual...

I was responding earlier though that we have a minimum of rituals in our Faith and gave some reasons for this.

- Art

[BruceDLimber]

Originally Posted by jiii

Although I am familiar with no formal studies, I have also read that Leonardo da Vinci was neurotic.

Well, that's probably to be expected when the Powers That Be order you, on pain of death, to deny that which you've seen and verified with your own eyes! . . .

Peace,

Bruce

[BruceDLimber]

Hi, Awaiting!

Please note tht you're most welcome here, and not in the least "intruding!"

Further any and all questions are always most welcome! :-)

Originally Posted by Awaiting_the_fifth

You say that your faith minimises rituals, but each individual must say daily prayers AND recite this phrase 95 times? daily?

But this can indeed be minimal!

If one chooses the short obligatory prayer, all this may take nearly a minute and a half to complete! . . . :-)

It's reasonably hard, I suggest, to do anything whatever and have it take much less time than this!

Best,

Bruce

[BruceDLimber]

Hi, Postmaster!

Originally Posted by Postmaster

The Baha'i faith is not very convenient to the masses or the west regardless of how well the core idea is for society i.e. progressive revelation. And I think that’s what discredits some of the possibly very important and truthful factors of the faith.

Why on earth not?!

I have no idea whatever what you mean by the Baha'i Faith's being "inconvenient." Nor that this supposedly "discredits" the Faith.

Please explain.

Regards,

Bruce