A Naturalistic Approach to Karma & Rebirth

[rdwillia]

Ooh, post #99!

Anyway, I like this and think it relates. I'm not sure exactly where it comes from. Enjoy!

The Buddha’s penetrating insight attracted many intellectuals, one of whom, Malunkyaputra, grew more and more frustrated as the Buddha failed to settle certain basic metaphysical questions. Finally he went to the Buddha in exasperation and confronted him with the following list:
“Blessed One, there are theories which you have left unexplained and set aside unanswered: Whether the world is eternal or not eternal; whether is it finite or infinite; whether a person who has attained nirvana exists after death or does not, or whether perhaps he both exists and does not exist, or neither exists nor does not.
The fact that the Blessed One has not explained these matters neither pleases me nor suits me. If the Blessed One will not explain this to me, I will give up spiritual disciplines and return to the life of a layman.”
“Malunkyaputra”, the Buddha replied gently, “when you took to the spiritual life, did I ever promise you I would answer these questions?”
Malunkyaputra was probably already sorry for his outburst, but it was too late. “No, Blessed One, you never did.”
“Why do you think that is?”
“Blessed One, I haven’t the slightest idea!
“Suppose, Malunkyaputra, that a man has been wounded by a poisoned arrow, and his friends and family are about to call a doctor. ‘Wait!’ he says. ‘I will not let this arrow be removed until I have learned the caste of the man who shot me. I have to know how tall his is, what family he comes from, where they live, what kind of wood his bow is made from, what fletcher made his arrows. When I know these things, you can proceed to take the arrow out and give me an antidote for its poison. ‘What would you think of such a man?”
“He would be a fool, Blessed One,” replied Malunkyaputra shamefacedly. “His questions have nothing to do with getting the arrow out, and he would die before they were answered.”
“Similarly, Malunkyaputra, I do not teach whether the world is eternal or not eternal; whether it is finite or infinite; whether a person who has attained nirvana exists after death or does not, or whether perhaps he both exists and does not exist, or neither exists nor does not. I teach how to remove the arrow: the truth of suffering, its origin, its end, and the Noble Eightfold Path.”

[Vajradhara]

Namaste rdwillia,

thank you for that post.. it was right "on time" for me

metta,

~v

[rdwillia]

Hey Vaj,

Glad to "see" you again and glad you liked it. I hope I'm not coming across as "above" worldly speculation, the reason I have that quote because I've often found myself spending too much time contemplating unanswerable questions that only serve to strengthen my delusions and attachments to this world. But I was hoping you might know where it came from?

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Rdwillia,

there are several places within the canon where Buddha Shakyamuni uses the similie of the arrow:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon...n-105-tb0.html

in this Sutta, Buddha is likening the arrow to tanha.

however, the similie that you are asking about is the one concerning speculative views:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon...n-063-tb0.html

(excerpt)

"It's just as if a man were wounded with an arrow thickly smeared with poison. His friends & companions, kinsmen & relatives would provide him with a surgeon, and the man would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know whether the man who wounded me was a noble warrior, a priest, a merchant, or a worker.' He would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know the given name & clan name of the man who wounded me... until I know whether he was tall, medium, or short... until I know whether he was dark, ruddy-brown, or golden-colored... until I know his home village, town, or city... until I know whether the bow with which I was wounded was a long bow or a crossbow... until I know whether the bowstring with which I was wounded was fiber, bamboo threads, sinew, hemp, or bark... until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was wild or cultivated... until I know whether the feathers of the shaft with which I was wounded were those of a vulture, a stork, a hawk, a peacock, or another bird... until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was bound with the sinew of an ox, a water buffalo, a langur, or a monkey.' He would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was that of a common arrow, a curved arrow, a barbed, a calf-toothed, or an oleander arrow.' The man would die and those things would still remain unknown to him.

.....

"And why are they undeclared by me? Because they are not connected with the goal, are not fundamental to the holy life. They do not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calming, direct knowledge, self-awakening, Unbinding. That's why they are undeclared by me.

"And what is declared by me? 'This is stress,' is declared by me. 'This is the origination of stress,' is declared by me. 'This is the cessation of stress,' is declared by me. 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress,' is declared by me.

"And why are they declared by me? Because they are connected with the goal, are fundamental to the holy life. They lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calming, direct knowledge, self-awakening, Unbinding. That's why they are declared by me.

metta,

~v

[DT Strain]

Indeed, these passages of the Buddha are exactly what I was referring to in my article when I said that he was concerned with this life and this world, and why so many of the Buddhist concepts are applicable for the naturalist.

As for non-naturalists of various sorts, there's no doubt that we all at least interface in this world, and so anything compatible with it must also be useful to everyone, even if they may have additional beliefs on top of that too.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste DT Strain,

thank you for the post.

Originally Posted by DT Strain

Indeed, these passages of the Buddha are exactly what I was referring to in my article when I said that he was concerned with this life and this world, and why so many of the Buddhist concepts are applicable for the naturalist.

just to be clear, though the previously mentioned Sutta is focused on speculative views, that does not mean that Buddha Shakyamuni didn't teach regarding the Other Shore or practices applicable to both, to wit:

Here he rejoices
he rejoices hereafter.
In both worlds
the merit-maker rejoices.
He rejoices, is jubilant,
seeing the purity
of his deeds.

Here he delights
he delights hereafter.
In both worlds
the merit-maker delights.
He delights at the thought,
'I've made merit.'
Having gone to a good destination,
he delights
all the more.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon...b0.html#dhp-16

this is from the Dhammapada and is concerned with the value of making merit as the foundation of ones practice. many beings in the Western hemisphere tend to consider these sorts of practices to be lowly practice and want to move into the move advanced practices right away. in some sense, the practice of generating merit seems quite at odds with Buddhist practice, however, that is simply a mistake of perspective.

Buddha Shakyamuni continually warns that the higher practices cannot be practiced in a stable manner without the firm foundation of merit which consists of; generosity, virtue and meditation.

the interested reader is directed here:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/merit.html

for an indepth study guide on Buddhist merit, the reasons for it and the goal of it.

metta,

~v

[DT Strain]

I agree that Westerners need to pay more attention to the lifestyle, ethics, and practice parts of Buddhism. Is this what is meant by 'merit-building'?

[Vajradhara]

Namaste DTSTrain,

thank you for the post.

yes, pretty much. generating merit is for all intents and purposes, the foundation of ones practice. thus, Buddhas recommend that sentient beings have a firm foundation upon which to build their practice.

generally speaking, generation of merit is outward actions reflecting internal mental states, as such, the specifics of generating merit are codified as "generosity, virtue and meditation".

meditation is clear enough for our discussion so i won't delve into it. generosity is, as it seems, the practice of being charitable with beings that are less fortunate than us, either in terms of material goods, foodstuffs and/or spiritual teachings and the like.

virtue is, for all intents and purposes, the practice of the 6 Paramitas with a particular emphasis on the ethical aspects of the teachings.

metta,

~v