A Fine Line?

[Paladin]

In the Christian way of seeing things, is there a difference between "Shame" and "Contrition"?

Peace
Mark

[mee]

Originally Posted by Paladin

In the Christian way of seeing things, is there a difference between "Shame" and "Contrition"?

Peace
Mark

When we repent, we feel deep regret, or contrition, over something we have done or have failed to do.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Paladin

In the Christian way of seeing things, is there a difference between "Shame" and "Contrition"?

Peace
Mark

Shame is humiliation and/or self loathing. Contrition is repentence (acceptance of responsibility) along with a firm resolve not to repeat the same action or thought.

[InLove]

I also think it ties in with the difference between acting in humility (humbling one's self) and self-humiliation (beating ourselves up over our mistakes).

InPeace,
InLove

[China Cat Sunflower]

And then there's a sort of put-on humility, which is really just a game to manipulate others and avoid showing one's cards. I'm thinking of people who are always self-deprecating and will never say what it is they really mean.

Chris

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

And then there's a sort of put-on humility, which is really just a game to manipulate others and avoid showing one's cards. I'm thinking of people who are always self-deprecating and will never say what it is they really mean.

Chris

I believe that is called false humility. It is also very easy to spot, if one has the "gift" of discernment. Many police officers have this gift, which is why bad guys get caught.

I once busted a Columbian with 1300 lbs of Cocaine. He, about 55, was all humility (trying to feed his wife and three kids, the whole shebang). I asked him a simple question. If you don't feed your own children Cocaine, then why would you try to feed mine the same...?

Humility evaporated "Because Americans are sh*t". I'm sure you can see my face at this point...but I was damn certain to be the epitome of a US representitive...

He professed to being catholic, so I gave him a rosary, and a military pocket Bible consisting of the new testament and Psalms (in Spanish).

Anyway, five days later we turned he and his crew over to DEA/Customs, and he looked at me and spat "you just stole my childrens' lives away!"

To which I replied, "Like you tried to steal mine?" I think that is when the realization hit him...he wasn't going back to Columbia, he had a date with a US Judge, and it was going to be a long time before he saw his family again.
Then, came the shame. This time it was legitimate. Two fathers fighting to raise their children. One was out to make a buck, and the other was out to save their lives, literally.

There is a fine line...

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I believe that is called false humility. It is also very easy to spot, if one has the "gift" of discernment. Many police officers have this gift, which is why bad guys get caught.

I once busted a Columbian with 1300 lbs of Cocaine. He, about 55, was all humility (trying to feed his wife and three kids, the whole shebang). I asked him a simple question. If you don't feed your own children Cocaine, then why would you try to feed mine the same...?

Humility evaporated "Because Americans are sh*t". I'm sure you can see my face at this point...but I was damn certain to be the epitome of a US representitive...

He professed to being catholic, so I gave him a rosary, and a military pocket Bible consisting of the new testament and Psalms (in Spanish).

Anyway, five days later we turned he and his crew over to DEA/Customs, and he looked at me and spat "you just stole my childrens' lives away!"

To which I replied, "Like you tried to steal mine?" I think that is when the realization hit him...he wasn't going back to Columbia, he had a date with a US Judge, and it was going to be a long time before he saw his family again.
Then, came the shame. This time it was legitimate. Two fathers fighting to raise their children. One was out to make a buck, and the other was out to save their lives, literally.

There is a fine line...

But don't you commend him for being a family man? Ok, maybe he doesn't care about other people's families, but at least he cared about his own . . . Or, are you saying that was all a lie?

Would it have been mitigating if he sold the cocaine to non-Americans (you think: who cares about the poor buggers overseas, they're not part of our country)? Not in my family, not in my country, not in my city, not on my planet, not among my people, doesn't affect me?

That might be a parallel to an "I'm doing it because I'm a patriot" argument, when say you're a weapons scientist and you sell your technology and ideas to a group of terrorists. You get away with it on the fact that the terrorists aren't opposed to your government, but are terrorists nonetheless.

Or perhaps you use underhanded methods to avoid taxes . . . Or you exceed the speed limit and say, "I exceeded the legal limit, but my actions are justified because I do it responsibly. I have an excuse. I'm a better person than other people who break the law. I'm a good guy, I don't lie, murder or steal, so I don't deserve any punishment. The law is only for bad people, not for responsible people. I sped responsibly, not recklessly like everyone else."

lol. Justify your conscience.

I hope I'm not giving anyone the wrong impression here. This post may make me sound like a shifty, devious and evil person. I was just making suggestions about evil deeds that were justifiable. I have no intention of corrupting anyone here.

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

And then there's a sort of put-on humility, which is really just a game to manipulate others and avoid showing one's cards. I'm thinking of people who are always self-deprecating and will never say what it is they really mean.

Chris

But what if this guy has personal problems/issues and he just wants people to understand and not condemn? Don't we all have a life story? Aren't we all going through a process of transformation and doing our best to be our best, to be dignified people, to have self-respect, etc.?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

But don't you commend him for being a family man? Ok, maybe he doesn't care about other people's families, but at least he cared about his own . . . Or, are you saying that was all a lie?

Would it have been mitigating if he sold the cocaine to non-Americans (you think: who cares about the poor buggers overseas, they're not part of our country)? Not in my family, not in my country, not in my city, not on my planet, not among my people, doesn't affect me?

That might be a parallel to an "I'm doing it because I'm a patriot" argument, when say you're a weapons scientist and you sell your technology and ideas to a group of terrorists. You get away with it on the fact that the terrorists aren't opposed to your government, but are terrorists nonetheless.

Or perhaps you use underhanded methods to avoid taxes . . . Or you exceed the speed limit and say, "I exceeded the legal limit, but my actions are justified because I do it responsibly. I have an excuse. I'm a better person than other people who break the law. I'm a good guy, I don't lie, murder or steal, so I don't deserve any punishment. The law is only for bad people, not for responsible people. I sped responsibly, not recklessly like everyone else."

lol. Justify your conscience.

I hope I'm not giving anyone the wrong impression here. This post may make me sound like a shifty, devious and evil person. I was just making suggestions about evil deeds that were justifiable. I have no intention of corrupting anyone here.



But what if this guy has personal problems/issues and he just wants people to understand and not condemn? Don't we all have a life story? Aren't we all going through a process of transformation and doing our best to be our best, to be dignified people, to have self-respect, etc.?

Oh, my bad. Forgot to mention. There was a British and Dutch frigate patroling with us. We were south of the Antillies. That load was slated for Europe...

As far as his family? I could care less, whether he was truthful or a liar. His intention was to deliver deadly poison for profit. Now he is in jail, where he belongs.

Just trying to dispose of the stuff nearly killed one of our crew members (pure cocaine can kill upon contact with the skin).

[Paladin]

I so much appreciate the responses in this thread, the idea of shame and humility is something I have struggled with on many levels for countless years. Just when I think I have a glimpse of understanding another level is revealed to me and I start over again knowing nothing. It was shame that drove me away from my complacent thinking and into a deeper search for God, and humility that I practice in that search. The writings of the Desert Fathers is rife with self recrimination and to the casual reader looks much like self -loathing. It was only after nearly twenty years of study that I began to understand the depths of their writings and that of scriptural ideas in the same vein.
Still, there is something within me that calls and asks if I fully understand, in this case it is dealing with my younger brother who from all indications may be suffering from Narcissistic Personality Disorder. This, I am told is caused by an early experience of unprocessed shame at an age where there was not enough maturity to tell the difference. The person suffering from this has spent a lifetime building a false persona (as opposed to a healthy sense of self) I see what this addiction to admiration has done to him and it causes me pain to see how he has suffered.
So I thank you all for your thoughtful responses.

Peace
Mark

[InLove]

Paladin--

Lifting your brother up to the heart of Love--and you, as well.

InPeace,
InLove

[Paladin]

{{{{In Love}}}}}

thank you