A Collection of Ideas

[Wizdumb]

Before reading any of this, you should know I am neutral about religion. My sole interest is finding truth and understanding and sharing knowledge and wisdom with others. Some of the things written here may be controversial and provocative, so if you get easily bothered, don't read it. It is not designed in any way to be offensive, so I hope no one gets offended or interprets it as such.

- For The 'Non-Believers'

Some people think belief is bad. They think it imprisons the mind. So here is something, especially for people who have this idea, to think about.

Life after death. Can we prove it exists? If we can't, it means believing in life after death is all we can do. So is it bad then to believe in life after death? The answer is no, and the reason is because if there is no life after death, nothing we do in this life matters. On the other hand, if there is a life after death, it's possible something we do in this life does matter, and directly affects what happens to us when we die.

In this particular case, there's no reason not to believe. And just because you believe, it doesn't mean you have to close your mind to other possibilities. It also doesn't mean you have to change your life in any way. So what possible reason would anyone have not to believe in life after death? And what does that say about belief in general?

- Think For Yourself

There is a problem in today's world. The problem is in our perspective of God. Through our entire lives, and the lives of generations before us, the image of God has been painted through religion. Everything we supposedly know about God has been placed in a box. Placed there by religion. And throughout our entire lives, we are meant to focus only on that box, if we want to know God.

Since we all grew up knowing only the things in the box, this is all most people ever see in God. They think it is all God is. But i'm here to tell you, the stuff religions teach does not necessarily have anything to do with God. We need to think outside of the box religion has placed the illusion of God in. Look beyond the portrait painted by religion. Because God might be real, just not a God of current religions. Just as God does not sit on a mountain throwing lightning bolts, God might not do the things claimed in current religions. We need to distinguish the factual information about God from the non-factual. Which, of course, is incredibly difficult to do. But, the first thing any of us need to do is understand the possibility God has nothing to do with current religions. Just as God had nothing to do with religions of old.

Think outside of the box. Unlearn what you've learned about God through religion. And then maybe you'll be able to find some truth about God.

- An Examination of Religion

Many people examine religion. But, they examine the teachings and beliefs of religion. In this short paper, I will be giving an examination of religion itself. The primary focus will be on modern religions which stem from the bible (only because I am most familiar with it). Although the principles are the same throughout most, if not all, religions.

#1: Religions do everything they can to ensure you do not lose faith or change religions.

#2: Religions have their good God's and bad God's. The purpose of the good God is obvious, but what is the real purpose of the bad God? I've come to the conclusion the real purpose is simply to take attention away from the good God. Bad things happen in life, and if people think it's their God's fault, they lose faith. So - create the devil and blame every bad thing on him.

#3: Religions use the technique of talking about things which cannot be proven or disproven, or so they hope. The most brilliant of their ideas was to utilize the mystery of life after death. Since we cannot prove what happens after we die, religions can say anything they want about it and we cannot say they are wrong.

#4: Religions use what I call "Advanced Terrorism". The way they use this is mainly in conjunction with #2. Here is the difference between advanced terrorism and normal terrorism:

Normal terrorists say, "If you do not meet our demands, we will kill you/hostages/etc. If you meet the demands, no one will get hurt."

Advanced - "If you do not meet our demands, we will kill you/hostages/etc. If you meet the demands, no one will get hurt, and we will give you a million dollars."

#5: Blowing things into 'biblical' proportion. Religions take all their ideas and multiply them by infinity. They say if you turn your back on (our) God, you go to hell. They make their good God a being of pure good and their evil God a being of pure evil. They take life after death and say it lasts for eternity. And in addition to threatening or rewarding you in this life, they say you will spend all of eternity in either the most extreme pleasure or extreme pain.

If you think about those a little more, you'll see countless examples of them taking place in various religions. Those five are the basic principles behind (successful) religion. And what do they equate to? The most brilliant form of mind-control in the history of our civilization. Books which use psychological techniques to control billions of people for thousands of years. It's even designed in a way which generates money for the people (priests, preachers etc.) who spread the word and entrap more minds. Pure genius, all of it.

That being said, I think religion has been for the best. Any given thing can be used for either good or evil. And, I think, contrary to the belief of some, religion has done more good than harm. The reason I think so is because of the nature of living creatures. Look at how easily we go to war. What if we didn't have religion controlling people's minds, telling people not to kill? Our civilization may not have reached the point it has. And when considering all of this, it's perfectly reasonable to think God inspired the writing of these books exactly for that purpose. But, I think we are approaching the age, if we're not already there, where religion will do more harm than good. The age where we no longer need religious control to stop us from self-destructing.

That is the end of the examination. But, on a side note; None of this means there isn't a God out there. I think it's strange how we're always taught never to repeat history, yet that's exactly what we've been doing with religions/Gods. There was a time when there were God's/religions, and they turned out to be bogus. Why then do we auto-accept the idea any current religions or God's are legit? Not all people do, but most of the ones who don't are atheists and others who make the jump, "I don't like this God, so i'll believe in no God.", instead of the jump, "I don't like this God, maybe it isn't a real God.". Remember, there's no reason to lose faith in the possibility a real God exists.

- I Challenge You

I've come up with evidence in support of God's existence. I challenge you to disprove it.

The evidence is in the apparent truth that want is the source of all things, including: needs, accidents, and random occurences. Because want is the source of all things, (what we might call) God must exist or have existed at one time.

Let me give you a few examples of how want is the source of things.

Accident: You go out digging for water, and you strike oil instead. You didn't want to find oil, but if you did not want to find water, you never would have found oil.

Need: If you want to survive, you need water, food, oxygen, etc.

Random Occurence: You want to go for a walk, cause it's a nice day. As you're walking down the street, a bird uses the bathroom on your head. If you did not want to walk down the street, you never would have gotten bird excrement on your head. Likewise, if the bird did not want to survive, it never would have eaten whatever it was that's waste product is now on your head.

A few things you have to understand. There are different kinds of wants. Wants of the mind, and wants of the body. You could also argue there are wants of the soul or emotional wants. When two wants conflict, the more powerful want, or more powerful will, prevails.

If everything comes from want, it means our universe, and life as we know it, comes from want. It also means existence itself comes from want. As we all know, want requires a living creature (rocks do not have wants). Which means, if all things do come from want, (what we might call) God is responsible for us being here and, of course, exists or existed at one time.

So, I challenge you to prove there is even one thing in existence which does not come from want.

And with this challenge I leave you, never to return. I hope you objectively consider thoughts, as I do.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Wizdumb, and welcome to CR!

I am thinking a great deal of your concept(s) lies in semantic nit-picking, or perhaps more properly alternate definitions.

Originally Posted by Wizdumb

My sole interest is finding truth and understanding

In the end, I think that is the interest of everyone who participates at this forum.

if there is no life after death, nothing we do in this life matters. On the other hand, if there is a life after death, it's possible something we do in this life does matter, and directly affects what happens to us when we die.

This is a minor modification of Pascal's wager. And it still presupposes that our actions now influence our "life" in the next realm, contingent on "cause and effect" and/or justice/mercy of a universal "judge." In short, it presupposes God from the git-go.

We need to distinguish the factual information about God from the non-factual. Which, of course, is incredibly difficult to do.

Particularly when there is little "factual" information to go on. What little there seems to be is individual interpretation of subjective experience, which is not factual in the common sense of the term to anyone besides that individual.

But, the first thing any of us need to do is understand the possibility God has nothing to do with current religions. Just as God had nothing to do with religions of old.

"Nothing" is a rather extreme point of view. Could it not be said instead that God has a great deal to do with every major religion, that it is human interpretation that has clouded the issue? Stated another way, religion (both institutional and personal) is humanity's attempt to explain God from various subjective points of view.

Many people examine religion. But, they examine the teachings and beliefs of religion.

There is a reason for this. What basis can one claim for morality outside of religion? What purpose for religion even being created in the first place, if not for moral guidance?

...an examination of religion itself. The primary focus will be on modern religions which stem from the bible (only because I am most familiar with it). Although the principles are the same throughout most, if not all, religions.

A great deal more than your short synopsis is already covered in the religion as a meme thread.

what is the real purpose of the bad God? I've come to the conclusion the real purpose is simply to take attention away from the good God. Bad things happen in life, and if people think it's their God's fault, they lose faith. So - create the devil and blame every bad thing on him.

For most Christians of my acquaintance this is true, but not Jews. Semantic interpretation.

Blowing things into 'biblical' proportion. Religions take all their ideas and multiply them by infinity. They say if you turn your back on (our) God, you go to hell. They make their good God a being of pure good and their evil God a being of pure evil. They take life after death and say it lasts for eternity. And in addition to threatening or rewarding you in this life, they say you will spend all of eternity in either the most extreme pleasure or extreme pain.

Again, this is a very Christian perspective, but it doesn't begin to approach so many of the other world religions, so this can in no way be stated as fact. Some have no God, good or bad, to blame. Others have a God that can be good or bad depending on his/her whim.

If you think about those a little more, you'll see countless examples of them taking place in various religions. Those five are the basic principles behind (successful) religion.

I cannot help but wonder...your focus seems entirely Christian, with little familiarity with other major world faiths. So, your "five" are *not* basic to "successful" religion in any more than a forced manner. If there is no "devil" to blame bad things on in a particular religion, then how does one deal mentally, emotionally and spiritually with the bad things in life?

...what do they equate to? The most brilliant form of mind-control in the history of our civilization. Books which use psychological techniques to control billions of people for thousands of years. It's even designed in a way which generates money for the people (priests, preachers etc.) who spread the word and entrap more minds.

I could be inclined to agree in general terms pertaining to institutional religion. However, it does not satisfy our innate desires of personal religion. Personal religion came first, institutional religion grew out of the seed of personal religious search for meaning and understanding of our place in the universe, in other words our relation to and with God.

Pure genius, all of it.

Interesting choice of word, "genius." I wonder if you are aware of the basis of the term. A "genius" is a spirit guide, if I recall correctly the word having the same root as the English word "genie." In effect, I see you saying that "spirit" created "the most brilliant form of mind control..." It would be no surprize I agree.

The reason I think so is because of the nature of living creatures. Look at how easily we go to war. What if we didn't have religion controlling people's minds, telling people not to kill? Our civilization may not have reached the point it has. And when considering all of this, it's perfectly reasonable to think God inspired the writing of these books exactly for that purpose.

Ah, paradox..."how easily we go to war," yet "religion...telling people not to kill." The tangent of "kill" versus "murder" and the semantic distinctions could take a thread to itself. The *fact* remains, humans kill to survive. We call it "eating." That is the nature of things, it is true of all creatures.

Murder, on the other hand, is an entirely different matter.

But, I think we are approaching the age, if we're not already there, where religion will do more harm than good. The age where we no longer need religious control to stop us from self-destructing.

I suspect you realize that few would agree.

I think it's strange how we're always taught never to repeat history, yet that's exactly what we've been doing with religions/Gods.

Quite the contrary, George Santayana warned us that history repeats itself. Come to think of it, so did Solomon.

I've come up with evidence in support of God's existence. I challenge you to disprove it.

As much as I enjoy a good debate, your evidence so far is mighty shaky. Nothing substantive, nothing empirical, nothing objective.

The evidence is in the apparent truth that want is the source of all things, including: needs, accidents, and random occurences. Because want is the source of all things, (what we might call) God must exist or have existed at one time.

I suspect what you mean by "want" is actually "will," particularly "free-will." Needs drive want, and needs are superior to wants. Look up Abraham Maslow and the hierarchy of needs.

Let me give you a few examples of how want is the source of things.

An interesting personal philosophy. Of course, I don't think it would be a surprize I don't agree.

Accident: You go out digging for water, and you strike oil instead. You didn't want to find oil, but if you did not want to find water, you never would have found oil.

I do not see the correlation beyond coincidence.

Need: If you want to survive, you need water, food, oxygen, etc.

Close. It is called "will to survive." It is innate in all living creatures. Yes, it drives the "need" for water, air, food, shelter, heat, (in the case of modern humans clothing, and arguably transportation and communication).

Random Occurence: You want to go for a walk, cause it's a nice day. As you're walking down the street, a bird uses the bathroom on your head. If you did not want to walk down the street, you never would have gotten bird excrement on your head. Likewise, if the bird did not want to survive, it never would have eaten whatever it was that's waste product is now on your head.

Who's to say? *If it is meant by the universe* for you to have bird poop on your head at some given moment, the course of events for that to happen will unfold regardless of your actions or intent. In my personal belief I think this is how God teaches us lessons. A "pop on the bottom" by the hand of the universe, as it were. Of course, this presumes predestination. There is the paradox: how much of our existence is predestination as opposed to how much of our existence is free-will.

If everything comes from want, it means our universe, and life as we know it, comes from want. It also means existence itself comes from want.

"If" is a huge two letter word. If everything does not come from want, where is your philosophy?

(rocks do not have wants).

Just curious, how do you know? Do you speak the language of rocks?

Which means, if all things do come from want, (what we might call) God is responsible for us being here and, of course, exists or existed at one time.

No. There is no correlation between these two. Because the rooster crows when the sun rises does not mean the sun requires the rooster. The sun will rise whether there is a rooster to crow or not. God, even in the etherial non-conformist sense you imply, exists regardless of want, and even in the absence of want.

So, I challenge you to prove there is even one thing in existence which does not come from want.

Want exists as a creation, want is a creation. In the modern sense, want is a selfish creation of a human individual. Animals deal only in needs. Nature deals only in necessity. The universe deals only in natural law.

...with this challenge I leave you, never to return.

Too bad...

I hope you objectively consider thoughts, as I do.

With all due respect, you may wish to look up the word "objectively." I think you will find that your thoughts here are quite subjective. Just like your religion.

[Bandit]

i am starting my collection of ideas here...
1)
2)
3)
4)
5)
6)
7) seven is a perfect number

give me some time i will come up with some more, like byThanksgiving.

[Dondi]

You know, Wizdumb, I actually like some of your observations. It shows a freethinking person making his case. And I would be obliged to respond to some of your comments except for one problem: You cut and ran from us. After joining this forum and posting one thread, you cut and ran from us, "never to return". Which defeats the purpose of joining the forum. I just joined myself, four posts ago, but I'm here to engage in stimulating conversation. So I refuse to make any other comments on this particular thread...unless you, Wizdumb, decide to come back and discuss the matters that are evidently important to you. Otherwise, good day!

[_Z_]

Interesting post wizdumb!

Death cannot be experienced! If it is terminal then we will not know about it, if there is life after death then it is irrelevant. Personally I go by the idea that – if there is life after death – then what could it realistically be like? It’s a big universe out there; surely we here on earth are not central or all important [no I am not going to go on about aliens]. I remember a painting of the Hindu ‘godhead’ that had images of people of all races – signifying the universal Hindu worldview; I would like to expand this notion to all beings in the universe! Firstly we may draw upon the intelligent beings that inhabit the universe, but some may be more advanced than us & others not so.

Where would we draw the line for our co-habitants? Are there no animals in the universal Elysium? Of course all of this would perhaps be too much for some people when they enter the kingdom of heaven after death, thus I feel an immediate view of it would be relative to our experience e.g. if Christian, then we would first perceive the Christian idea of heaven etc. then there is the idea of ‘like attracts like’ this would add to this idea & if re-born into this world we would be ‘attracted’ to like parents! [this seams more logical than having a god or deity controlling things – esp. when considering the numbers involved].



I agree with your perspective on religious control! I am a bit of an anarchist, so I like to believe that god/universal spirit does not seek to control, indeed the very nature of the inner-most spirit of us and everything is - if you will – the very form of freedom, as it may take on any shape and is boundless even perhaps stateless.





Bandit: hello! seven is also the number of the octave – if you consider the eighth to be of the same nature as the first, that’s why it sound the same but higher. Interestingly the first & seventh elements on the periodic table equal water when added – thus it is a balancing number too [water is in the middle of the acid – salt spectrum], seven primary colours as well.

[RusticMusic]

HI, Seven major chakras?

[Bandit]

i am still working on my collection. lately they have been very scattered & the only one that really keeps coming forth strongly is Love & Gods love & what that really means. i hope to have them in order by the end of the year but i doubt they will be complete.

[_Z_]

Bandit: one cannot build upwards towards god anymore than infinity, it is simply a case of ‘getting there at once’ and If I may say gods love is a part of what he is, therefore all pervading, there are no distinctions within the heart of god!



Hope that means something to you.



Z

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by _Z_

Bandit: one cannot build upwards towards god anymore than infinity, it is simply a case of ‘getting there at once’ and If I may say gods love is a part of what he is, therefore all pervading, there are no distinctions within the heart of god!



Hope that means something to you.



Z

certainly it does & thank you. that tells me that Gods love is infinite & Never ending. since i am finite there as an endless supply of love, & that i can go as far into Gods loves as i choose to go & even manifest it along the way. since this love is endless, as for distinctions & getting there all at once- we may differ there, but that is another topic & i think i will just focus on the endless love & the infinite God for now, while putting together my little collection.
peace & i hope i can be of service to you someday.

[Thomas]

Hi Juantoo3

A noble effort!

I too would discount this inquiry on the principle that certain a priori assumptions about religion show an utterly subjective selection criteria.

So what we are faced with is not even human reason and logic, but a given person's reasoning and logic, failing to comprehend that God is subject to neither and which thus renders the inquirer unable to comprehend the reality of 'religion.'

The 'challenge' to prove it assumes also that the challenger has sufficient intellectual resources to appreciate the proof - and as you imply - what is being requested is what will not and will never (pray God!) be found - an empirical and material proof of God (as if the Kosmos, or Scripture, was not enough!)

Thomas

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Thomas!

Thank you for your kind words. I have always found your thoughts insightful.

Of course, the challenge of finding objective evidence of God is to me always an enjoyable past-time. I cannot help but think so many in this pursuit mistake their own prejudicial thoughts as being objective, rather than subjective. Of course, therein also lies a great deal of the difficulty, distancing oneself from one's own desires long enough to look at "reality," whatever that may in fact turn out to be!

In the end it is a frivolous pursuit. But there are far more dangerous and disingenuous past-times to pursue. I find it occupies my time with a relatively harmless hobby.

There are others, in my experience in this subject, who are not so sincere in their motivations, let alone appropriate in their methods.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Bandit!

Originally Posted by Bandit

i am starting my collection of ideas here...
1)
2)
3)
4)
5)
6)
7) seven is a perfect number

give me some time i will come up with some more, like byThanksgiving.

I know there are a number of significant uses of the number seven in the Old Testament, but I am at a loss at this very moment. Things like the significance of the "seventh day."

I have been trying to learn a little Chinese lately. I found it very interesting that the same word for seven, "chi," is the same word for "life-force." Of course, it is also the same word for "chicken." Don't count this as gospel yet, there may be some subtle pronunciation points I am missing, and each of these words may very well be spelled differently. I just thought it very interesting how similar each of these words sound when spoken.

[_Z_]

There is no separateness between us and the ultimate reality beyond infinity imho; indeed the spirit has no boundaries! ‘it’ weather one thinks of it as god or ultimate nature is part of what we are ultimately [& vice versa]. Why does everyone think that god/UR has to be beyond us? Ok it may be beyond comprehension to us & dare I say even to god! As it is simply beyond comprehension full stop. For me it is a reality I have experienced that is – the ultimate nature/nothingness/[beyond] infinity, whatever one wishes to call ‘it’, of course this may not be the god most people think of, I see it more similar to nirvana. We may be able to make things arise from it as thought of as a primordial ocean, but so could a universal being! So perhaps god is that i.e. the greatest being in existence, in a perfect way – because he has no body or anything to disturb or confuse his perfect thought!

Ok so I have gone around in a circle and found god as being beyond ultimate reality as well as being an integral part of it, thus we may arrive at once in the [‘place’] belly of god [if you will] yet cannot arrive at god himself. Perhaps when we die we all go there that we are at one with what we are in all eternity & ‘know’ god by his presence, which is with us always.



q. Am I wrong to look for philosophical understanding of god? [As is implied whenever I talk about it with people]. With everybody’s help I have arrived at an understanding – in ten years time it will probably be completely different – but at least I feel as though I can hold god in my heart & move forwards in his wisdom.



Love and light to all



Z