I must preface this posting by apologising for raving on as usual!!!!
Hi all and didymus,
Apologies for my tardiness in this response, but I could not let the quote from Mark go without at least a few words comment. I think it is relevant because it does go to the heart of the different conceptions of God I think and as Quahom 1 points out it is always dangerous quoting from the Scripture of another faith.
So below is the post from didymus.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by didymus
I want to add to this discussion verses from Mark that are revealing of Jesus' real identity. I respect anyone's opinion that Jesus is God and only want to throw in my 2 cents.
Mark 10:17-21
As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell to his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good except God alone. You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraus, honor your father and mother.'
"teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I was a boy."
Jesus looked at him and loved him. "one thing you lack," he said. "Go sell all your things and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come follow me."
This comes from Mark , the first gospel written about 20 -30 years after Jesus' death. Jesus clearly seperates himself from God stating that only God is good. What I find even more important is his answer to the man's inquiry of eternal life. "follow the commandments," he said. He didn't say, believe that I am God or profess with your lips that I am lord of the universe, the first and the last, come to judge mankind. He said follow the commandments. Jesus was offering something beyond the law. he was preaching a giving of self to others, a complete emptying of the spirit for mankind. The man already had his fate sealed according to Jesus, eternal life for practicing the 10 commandments. But he knew one could go even further than that, he broke all the taboos and the societal barriers, he wasn't afraid to go outside the box of the Pharisees and Saducees.
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The trouble is that the story has not reached it's conclusion. the next few verses read thus:
"23 Then Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it will be for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!” 24 And the disciples were perplexed at these words. But Jesus said to them again, “Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.” 26 They were greatly astounded and said to one another, “Then who can be saved?” 27 Jesus looked at them and said, “For mortals it is impossible, but not for God; for God all things are possible.”"
Mk 10:23-27 NRSV
For Christians one of the primary characteristics of God is that God is a God of grace. On the other hand God also demands perfect obedience. Thus God loves us and all people even though we do not deserve it, even though we can not fully obey the commandments, even though we can not bring ourselves to sell all we have and give it to the poor. The disciples are astounded because, if a rich man can not enter the Kingdom, who can? (EG It is easy to not work on the Sabbath if you are rich.)
Jesus' answer is that for human beings (not just rich people) it is impossible!! BUT for God all things are possible. The rich man came and asked the wrong question "What must I do...". So Jesus gives the answer to his question. Obey the commandments... sell everything - That is - do the impossible like a camel going through the eye of a needle. In a graphic and confronting way Jesus is making the point that none of us can be perfectly obedient.
The right question would have been "How do I receive...". The disciples hint at this question when they ask "Who then can be saved?" Jesus does not answer this question except by saying that “For mortals it is impossible, but not for God; for God all things are possible.”
In other words it is God who gives salvation and we do not earn it, because in the Christian understanding God demands perfection and no human being is capable of this. Human obedience, and self sacrifice are never enough because they are never perfect. Only God saves. Christians do not believe we save ourselves and Jesus says as much in this story!
Christians believe that Jesus alone, truly God and truly human, could make the perfect response of obedince which God demands. didymus is right though to point out that this is not spelled out in this story in Mark's Gospel. Instead it comes from among other places the earliest Christian writings - earlier than the Gospels - the writings of Paul.
I believe at least at this point there is a difference of understanding in the Abrahamic faiths. As I understand it Judaism and Islam both believe God is merciful. I know too that there is at least some understanding of God being a God of grace in Judaism. I do not know if there is a place for grace in Islam. Yet at the same time there is an understanding that certain things must be done, there must be a particular measure of obedience, in order to receive salvation. Though God is a God of Mercy and perhaps Grace then as I understand it, in Islam and Judaism, God's mercy and grace do not overwhelm God's requirement of obedience.
For Christianity God's mercy and grace overwhelm God's requirement of perfect obedience.
Do I have it right? Is this differing understanding of salvation and God's character one of the main difference between the Abrahamic faiths' understanding of God? Or is it irrelevant? Is the Christian preocupation with salvation something peculiar to Christianity? (I know some forms of Judaism do not believe in life after death for instance.)